flat assembler
Message board for the users of flat assembler.

Index > Heap > vmware esx, or any other choice?

Author
Thread Post new topic Reply to topic
vbVeryBeginner



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 884
Location: \\world\asia\malaysia
vbVeryBeginner
xen?
or more choices?

http://www.ibm.qassociates.co.uk/vmware-esx-server-faqs.htm wrote:
Does ESX Server Run on Linux? On Windows?
ESX Server runs natively on server hardware, without a host operating system. The ESX Server virtualization layer is a highly compact and efficient operating system kernel entirely developed by VMware for optimum virtual machine performance. This allows ESX Server to fully manage the hardware resources and provide the highest levels of security and performance isolation. ESX Server also incorporates a service console based on a Linux 2.4 kernel that is used to boot the ESX Server virtualization layer. It also runs ESX Server administration applications.


this is awesome thingy, maybe something like hypervista stuff.

anyone ever use esx?
the minumum requirement is 2 processor Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
i got one only Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
Post 02 Sep 2006, 07:35
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Hi vb! ESX Server is the only VMWare product that is truly hypervisor based. Their other products are host based virtualization solutions, i.e., they sit on top of the host OS. ESX, on the other hand is a true hypervisor and therefore is it's own minimal OS, upon which other OSes run.

Xen 3.0 is also hypervisor based and if you're interested in such things, I'd recommend you look at the source code (open source). In fact, the recent Blue Pill project "borrowed" extensively from the Xen 3.0 source code. Xen 3.0 takes advantage of the virtualization support in AMD's Pacifica (SVM) and Intel's VT-x (VMX). Previous versions of Xen did not provide support for SVM or VMX and relied on what is known as "para-virtualization".

IBM was working on a hypervisor until about 6 or 9 months ago and have basically shelved that work in favor of getting behing the Xen 3.0 movement.

Microsoft is actively developing a hypervisor and desperately trying to lock their hypervisor into Vista, making it very difficult for 3rd party hypervisor to work well. They're planning on licensing Vista virtualization "enlightenments" (that's actually what they call them Rolling Eyes ) to 3rd party hypervisor developers like myself. So, if I want to virtualize Vista, I'll have to pay M$ a license fee to use the "enlightments" in Vista to make that efficient. Evil or Very Mad That said, M$ won't have their hypervisor ready until late 2007 / early 2008.

Since VMWare's ESX Server product is fairly expensive and Xen 3.0 is open source and free for the downloading, the choice is clear. Wink

Another true hypervisor product out there is called Parallels, which made a big splash earlier this year for being the first hypervisor solution for booting Windows XP on the then new x86 based Macs. Hypervisors are handy for all sorts of interesting tasks!

I'm building a hypervisor that has a mission of hosting security utilities such as intrusion detection, root-kit detection, virus scanning, etc. A hypervisor is a very good place to place such functionality.

Do take a look at Xen 3.0 source code to get an idea what hypervisors are all about "under the hood".
Post 02 Sep 2006, 08:00
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
vbVeryBeginner



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 884
Location: \\world\asia\malaysia
vbVeryBeginner
hi hypervista,
thanks for replied.
btw, i check on the parallels workstation,
http://www.parallels.com/en/download/workstation/
i think it still required host os to functions Sad Sad Sad

or if there another version of (stand alone parallels) ?
Post 02 Sep 2006, 08:30
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
yo vb - when you install Parallels, it modifies the boot loader so that the hypervisor boots first. You do need an OS because the hypervisor is a very, very minimalistic OS, so all true hypervisors still need an OS just like OSes need applications to make them valuable.

When I say other products are host based virtualizations, it means that the OS kernel sits on top of the hardware layer and the virtualization software sits on top of the host OS much like other apps. The guest OSes, or virtual machines sit on top of the hypervisor. Privileged calls are trapped in the virtualization layer and passed down through the OS kernel for action and the response is passed back up.

With hypervisors, it's the other way around; the hypervisor sits on top of the hardware layer and the launches the OS on tope of it. It's one thing that makes hypervisors so powerful. The hypervisor can see and control everything on the platform if configured or written to do so.

This is why Joanna's presentation in Singapore and Blackhat Las Vegas this year caused quite a stir. She presented a hypervisor based rootkit. Very powerful and compelling stuff to be sure!

Btw, Parallels is a company right here in my hometown (Herndon, Va - USA). The company was started by three very talented Russian programmers.
Post 02 Sep 2006, 17:20
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
vbVeryBeginner



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 884
Location: \\world\asia\malaysia
vbVeryBeginner
ic, thanks hypervista.
now i wonder, let say if i install parallels workstation, then i shutdown the pc, boot using dos floppy disk, format c:/, would the hypervisor gets deleted? (assume harddisk1 got 3 partition, c, d and e)

maybe to get rid the hypervisor could be an issue. evil hypervisor could be a big problem.

and one thing i wonder is, why and how the parallels workstation could install the hypervisor? when (let say i am running windows and install it in user mode)

if they could, that mean, every application out there can put hypervisor into our pc too without our knowing! by just asking us to install some software or etc.
Post 02 Sep 2006, 19:05
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
vbVeryBeginner



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 884
Location: \\world\asia\malaysia
vbVeryBeginner
i just thought of an idea,
coz let say our pc is hijacked with malicious hypervisor, no matter how we delete/format/reinstall, it is still there.

but the main concern for (malicious) hypervisor is to transmit our (secret) out from our pc to his/her pc through "network".

and since our OS r installed inside the hypervisor vm environement and let say when use windows, we can see the icon blinking when we transmit data. so no blink = no data transfer.

but if we got a router, and the router blink, but the icon doesn't blink, then this could be a sign that we r hypervisored.

maybe they can create a new kind router with LCD screen to show input and ouput byte, so we can use it to detect hypervisor. (assume the hypervisor is so smart to transmit out data when only user use its internet.)
so, if we got that kinda router, we can clear the router screen, then start our transmission and check the total goes out bandwidth with the size of file we just transmitted.

just idea. Smile ha ppy cod ing. :p
Post 03 Sep 2006, 13:59
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
vbVeryBeginner



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 884
Location: \\world\asia\malaysia
vbVeryBeginner
or maybe future processor should comes with vga and keyboard port, so it can sends direct info to monitor and accept direct input from keyboard without getting tampered by hypervisor. and probably an external button on casing that once pressed, a new copy (of bios memory) would be copied into bios flash memory, and ram would be zerorized and pc reboot and boot through CD or floppy, not HD.

just idea, happy coding :p

ps: i really wonder does the parallel hypervisor on my pc has been deleted or not Crying or Very sad
Post 04 Sep 2006, 15:57
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Artlav



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 188
Location: Moscow, Russia
Artlav
vbVeryBeginner wrote:
or maybe future processor should comes with vga and keyboard port, so it can sends direct info to monitor and accept direct input from keyboard without getting tampered by hypervisor. and probably an external button on casing that once pressed, a new copy (of bios memory) would be copied into bios flash memory, and ram would be zerorized and pc reboot and boot through CD or floppy, not HD.

just idea, happy coding :p


I think that was called In Circuit Debugger, or ICE.

Just how the ESX server works? How is resource distribution, like PCI cards and video cards?
Anyone succeded installing windows on XEN?
Post 04 Sep 2006, 16:43
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Unless the hypervisor manages to infect your BIOS, you can always boot from a cd or pendrive or, *crikey*, even a floppy, to get rid of it...
Post 04 Sep 2006, 22:56
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
Yep, f0dder! Boot disk or complete format and reinstall of OS would rid your system of a malicious hypervisor (there are some tricks, however, to hid portions in the MBR which are not overwritten during a standard reinstall of the OS).

A BIOS resident hypervisor would be particularly nasty, which is why UEFI is potentially very dangerous (lots of "room" to stuff and hid things, not to mention all the pre-OS capabilities in UEFI).

@Artlav - to successfully launch Windows with Xen you need Xen 3.0 and a processor that supports VMX (Intel hardware virtualization support) or SVM (AMD hardware virtualization support). Previous version of Xen could not effectively host Windows as a guest OS because there are about 17 Windows system calls that can not be virtualized. Previous versions of Xen did what is called "paravirtualization", which requires the guest OS to be slightly modified and to that you need the source code (something M$ never seems to want to provide Mad ).
Post 05 Sep 2006, 02:01
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
[edit]moved HyperVista's article here[/edit]

how complicated is it to create such supervisor? we could write one very basic using FASM, it will be great for propagation of FASM.
(of course not if you think it will harm your business )

to hiding supervisor - do you think that it might be able to hide itself from timing check? for example:
1. use plenty of such instructions that may be trapped by hypervisor
2. count ticks and compare to awaited (this could be fairly hard to emulate).
3. display time elapsed to user so he can compare it with real one.
4. Then check ticks/time ratio to speed of processor
i think hypervisor can't defend from such check


Last edited by vid on 05 Sep 2006, 14:18; edited 1 time in total
Post 05 Sep 2006, 11:29
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger ICQ Number Reply with quote
HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 691
Location: Virginia, USA
HyperVista
yep! I'm trying to write my hypervisor (supervisor) in FASM .... well, partially in FASM but mostly in C. Once I get further along, I plan on trying to publish articles in magazines to promote the work and how FASM helped in the effort. three friends of mine (Keith Brown, Arron Skonnard, and Fritz Onion ... google them) publish articles frequently in MSDN (Microsoft's developer's magazine) and I'm going to ask them to help me make the right contact with editors when the time comes.

I think developing a hypervisor in FASM on this board with be a great thing and wouldn't affect my business. My business success relies on some pending patents, not the platform on which it's written. Cool
Post 05 Sep 2006, 13:10
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:
Post new topic Reply to topic

Jump to:  


< Last Thread | Next Thread >
Forum Rules:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Copyright © 1999-2020, Tomasz Grysztar.

Powered by rwasa.