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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Tomasz Grysztar, your view is the correct one IMHO and maybe even an AV forum is needed, where anti virus code that detects and clean viruses (and the damage they do) is a far better solution than Vortex's close his eye's and pretend there's no bad people out there approach. As long as you highlight that any evidence of virus code use in anything other than the production of AV code to defeat said virus "will be reported to the FBI or similar authority". This I believe would be a great service to the programming world in my opinion.


Vortex, please consider I do understand your original point of view ( the endless arguing after your original point I don't understand ). Perhaps you're right, maybe non promotion of virus code is the best solution but it's my opinion judging by the complete lack of non commercial anti virus related resources out there, this approach is already being tried and is failing!

Regards MichaelH
Post 27 Nov 2005, 22:50
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Matrix



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1171
Location: Overflow
Matrix
i think this question is only present because of microsoft operating systems, how often do you see viruses on linux?

maeby they do not work well on linux?
this could be another thing you should think of, there can be viruses, but you use os that lets them to do distruction,

my opinion is the bug is in windows

On a real protected mode operating system, there should be priority levels, and,
Some rules that programs must obey, : ex: user software do not write sectors on hard disk without user permission, user programs does not format track without user permission, user program does not access, delete, modify files other than the ones it installed, or in the wirking directory, user program do not set/delete/modify registry in destructive way, not set it as hidden process, system service without the user permission.
Some data could be tagged by system as read only, and to be read by only specific program.

These few things could make some viruses useless, at least iportant data could be saved.

So i think instead of anti virus, teams could write software to protect valuable user data, and the second thing whould be not to let viruses even work.

imagine if your software you just downloaded, and installed whould like to format some tracks on your hdd, it sets itself as system service using a bug, then formats in background, random track, you dont even know what is the problem, until its too late. - how much it whould be better if you could strop the software from doing thing you whouldnt like it to do.
Post 28 Nov 2005, 00:27
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roticv



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 374
Location: Singapore
roticv
Matrix, are you on crack when you wrote that? What you are proposing sounds rather illogical to me. From what I infer you are saying that linux has no virus because its user mode has better protection. That's wrong because virii do exist for linux. It is probably because linux is targetting the geeky ppl and not the end users. Always think about the end users and not yourself who is a programmer.

The stand that understanding virus would allow us to create better AV software. My question is that if virus do not exist, do we even need to create AV software. AV only exist because there are virii. We should start by taking a anti-virii stand rather than go around the bushes allowing virii code to appear then defend it by saying that it is for the improvement of AV.

Just my 2 cents.
Post 28 Nov 2005, 02:35
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MichaelH



Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 402
MichaelH
Matrix, one could say your opinion on the windows OS being the problem (and yes roticv, linux as well), hit the nail on the head. One could even go as far to say by not posting virus code you are protecting the biggest virus makers of all, one could say that, as for me, I have no comment on the subject Wink


There are several small operating systems out there that show what can be achieved by an OS that if infected by a virus/viruses, the user just needs to reboot a non infected image (maybe on a floppy, CD or removable flash disk) and everything is OK again. My current windows install with apps is 12 gig in size .... how pathetic is that :O

Even M$ is investing big time in an online windows version so who knows, one day this virus debate may be a mute point.
Post 28 Nov 2005, 03:30
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Matrix



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1171
Location: Overflow
Matrix
roticv wrote:
Matrix, are you on crack when you wrote that? What you are proposing sounds rather illogical to me. From what I infer you are saying that linux has no virus because its user mode has better protection. That's wrong because virii do exist for linux. It is probably because linux is targetting the geeky ppl and not the end users. Always think about the end users and not yourself who is a programmer.

The stand that understanding virus would allow us to create better AV software. My question is that if virus do not exist, do we even need to create AV software. AV only exist because there are virii. We should start by taking a anti-virii stand rather than go around the bushes allowing virii code to appear then defend it by saying that it is for the improvement of AV.

Just my 2 cents.


no, roticv,
i just wanted to take out, linux has very few virus written on because of better protections, and not over bloated with bugs, and automatic downloading/executing things, could you quote me what do you think is illogical plz?
i will re phrase if you tell me what do you think i wrote wrong

i was just pointing at by limiting the softwares - possibly infected by virus, we could reduce the damage caused by them, protecting very important data - like a month of work! - not letting to simply do whatever.
You can say on this to backup on cd every day...

for example i dont see any reason why whould a calc.exe write on the disk, or search for exe files - simple example
it can do it by default!

not talking of, internet explorer can automatically download files from internet, and put it into the windows directory, ".exe" files, even replacing others, then execute them automatically.
i once had calc.exe replaced by an unknown exe - dont tell me this is normal
Post 28 Nov 2005, 04:31
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asmdemon



Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 97
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
asmdemon
merit can be givin to both sides of this issue(originally being posting Virus code on forum)

Vortex: You are right in that posting viral code on this forum can lead others to writing and distributing viruses, which is bad.

Thomasz: You are right that learning how viruses work, one can defend against them, which is good.

Anyone can research viruses from the vast amounts of info available on the internet. He had a simple question about a code, and posted the code he had a problem with. Those here with more knowledge about the problem helped him, eventually, and the problem was solved. Regardless of what that code is, we as programmers, have the ability to either help or not to post. If the code is questionable, 1 post should be made and further discussion should be done with 3 people: the one posting, the one objecting, and the moderator.

I feel that this debate is as contriversal as many debates: (abortions, stem cell, owning a gun, etc.) All of which we all have our respected opinions.

Knowledge is Power. Power isn't evil by default. You can use power to raise or lower any aspect of modern society. Without knowing how a program( yes viruses are programs too, they just are not helpful ones) works, how can someone learn. How you use power is based on what type of person you are.

IMHO This forum is here to help other programmers further their ability in programming. If a posting on how to interface the keyboard is made, and the person posting it has a question on helping his OS, then there would be little or no problem. But the same code can be used by a another person to make a keylogger, which is also contriversial. Keyloggers in the hands of system administrators is a tool and used for the best of the company(or home to see what your kids are doing), but it can also be used to capture information that the owner of the computer doesn't know is being recorded, and then used maliciously to get credit card info and such.

All i can say is that everyone should keep in mind what they post and try to see that code through other peoples eyes. The best way for us to help people is to see the entire context of a program in which there is a problem. However, if the program can be cut-down to remove possible (contriversial) codes, try to do so.
Post 28 Nov 2005, 05:21
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Vortex



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 318
Vortex
MazeGen wrote:

Vortex expressed his opinions with correct behaviour and he gets this insult.

I am unpleasantly surprised that moderators of this board allow Torrey offend Vortex, one of the very experienced programmers and frequent contributor to assembly community.

That is really sad Sad

Torrey, please apologize to Vortex.


Tomasz,

Now, open big your eyes and read the phrases from Torrey.

Please can you tell me now who is insulted?

_________________
Code it... That's all...
Post 28 Nov 2005, 10:55
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
Vortex wrote:
...Are you aware of what are you talking about? To understand the structure of nicotine, you need to take at least one semester organic chemistry course. Now, examine the formula below and tell me what you understand about it :...

Dusting off my old organic chem book, I suppose that the compound you have illustrated is a tertiary amine consisting of a pyridine and a pyrrolidine ring.
responding to the issue of HOW nicotine compels addiction, I believe the evidence points to presynaptic nicotinic receptors in the nucleus accumbens.
The question you have raised, i.e. whether or not certain topics should be permitted, encouraged, or forbidden, on this or any other forum, is indeed a litmus test (to pick yet another chemistry reference) for intellectual honesty. Should we discuss topics potentially harmful to other humans, or what about other species, for example, birds? Shouldn't knowledge about assembly language programming, regardless of the particular application of that knowledge, be encouraged? Yes, it was wrong for a subsequent list member to denigrate your post, and I don't think Tomasz ignored it, I think he chose to permit a wide latitude of responses, appropriately in my opinion.
Imagine that the entire planet had only 20 humans: 4 people each, in Europe, Asia, Africa, North and South America. As one of those twenty, would you still be afraid to read explicit directives about guns and bombs and computer viruses? Isn't it really just a problem of overpopulation? Guns and bombs and computer viruses would have no impact on homo sapiens if there were fewer of us. It is our close proximity to one another, and our fear of not possessing sufficient resources to remain alive, that compels our behaviour seeking guns and bombs to kill other humans--those attempting perhaps to steal "our" precious oil in Iraq, or introduce malicious computer viruses for the purpose of disabling our surveillance capabilities, hence weakening our defensive posture, making our resources more vulnerable to attack. Perhaps we are after all, still only homo neanderthalensis. Crying or Very sad
Post 28 Nov 2005, 12:00
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gunblade



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 209
gunblade
Well done on chopping and moving the post, the other guy's thread was being filled by this discussion.

On the whole virus posting issue, it's ultimately Thomas's choice, he runs the forum, and its his choice on what is acceptable or not. If you don't like what is posted Vortex, you can say you dont like it, but if Thomas sees the subject matter as acceptable, there is nothing you can do. Just ignore the topic, go on to the next post. It is a large forum, discussing many topics, just like some people wont go into the unix section if they are not interested, then you don't need to go into any posts regarding viruses if you are not interested.
I'm not saying that this discussion is a bad thing, it's interesting to see people's views and opinions on matters like these, it's just that it doesnt seem like it's going to get resolved anytime soon.

So let's all agree to disagree Very Happy

gunblade
Post 29 Nov 2005, 10:40
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Vortex: you HAD been insulted, that's true. But do you always take it that hard? I have been insulted myself several times here, and much many times elsewhere, but that's normal. Don't take this as insult, but If you are such keen on being insulted in real world then i wouldn't want to meet you. Everyone should train his ingore-others skill
Post 29 Nov 2005, 14:11
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MazeGen



Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: Czechoslovakia
MazeGen
As for insults: the problem lies in fact that we discuss things in virtual world here. We can use just a text or pictures to share our opinions. It is very difficult to express some emotions or exaggeration as in real world. And don't forget that many members are not native english speakers.
In such virtual word people tends to oversimplify things and they are also coarser than in real world.

Therefore, when one member insults other members, another members tend to do similar things and whole discussion goes to the hell. (Look at alt.lang.asm, for instance: neverending insults between hutch and betov, racist posts etc.)
IMO the moderator (or administrator) should be sensitive to such post and admonish its posters.

Additionally, somebody silently edited my original post. Why he doesn't add "edited by" at least? I think these things ruin the culture of this board.

As for the virii-related topics, the moderator or the administrator bears resposibility and if he doesn't mind about it, we can do nothing.
Post 29 Nov 2005, 15:48
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
mazegen: do you find it bad to discuss virus code here?
Post 29 Nov 2005, 16:26
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gunblade



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 209
gunblade
On the other extreme, we could always just put a poll and see what the majority of the board thinks. Democracy I think they call it, seems to kinda work in some countries. Razz
About the insults, as vid said, don't take it to heart. Yes, by all means, report any insults or abuse, so that the person can be dealt with, but dont take it too personal, some people are just needlessly cruel on the internet.


gunblade
Post 29 Nov 2005, 18:38
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
gunblade: good idea about poll, make it (it's your idea)
Post 29 Nov 2005, 19:30
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gunblade



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 209
gunblade
It has been done. I know it's quite bad of me to put only Yes and No as answers, but I prefer to keep it simple, rather than have way too many hazy choices.

Oh, and be nice, I dont want insults flying in my thread. Cool

gunblade
Post 29 Nov 2005, 23:02
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MazeGen



Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: Czechoslovakia
MazeGen
vid wrote:
mazegen: do you find it bad to discuss virus code here?


See the pool.

_________________
x86asm.net
Post 30 Nov 2005, 15:18
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Figure



Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 4
Location: somewhere
Figure
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression;
this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference
and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas througt
any media and regardless of frontiers."
Article 19 of "Universal Declaration of Human Rights"

that's so... Wink
Post 30 Nov 2005, 20:33
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MazeGen



Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 975
Location: Czechoslovakia
MazeGen
Are you serious? It has nothing with the topic...
Post 01 Dec 2005, 11:26
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Adam Kachwalla



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 150
Adam Kachwalla
WARNING: It is illegal for any unauthorized person to write viruses. I agree with Vortex: it shouldn't be allowed on this board. Saying something like "Viruses are allowed to be posted on this board for educational purposes..." is like saying "You are allowed to look at pornography for research on a biology assignment..." Like pornography, viruses are ILLEGAL.


Hacker - somebody who hacks into their own hardware/software without giving a hoot about other people's computer

Cracker - somebody who gains unauthorized access into another system that does not belong to them



Thank Microsoft and others that hackers are given a bad name.
Post 03 May 2006, 07:16
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Quote:

i think this question is only present because of microsoft operating systems, how often do you see viruses on linux?

maeby they do not work well on linux?


How many people are using linux, and how many people are using windows? For a little virus-writing scum, it's more interesting to infect a lot of machines, and thus the target will be windows. Don't think that linux virii aren't doable, and do remember that the first internet worm targetted unix. True, a default XP installation has a lot of unpatched holes (especially for morons who don't install SP2), but do have a look at the amount of exploits there's been in the BIND DNS software...

Quote:

On a real protected mode operating system, there should be priority levels, and,
Some rules that programs must obey

This is called Windows NT. Too bad that most people have administrative privileges on their main user account (partly Microsoft's fault with XP, but still.) - the NT kernel is pretty damn decent.

As for the virus issue, I think it's a bad idea. Bad bad idea. I understand Tomasz's arguments, but the problems is that allowing "viral research" on a public forum opens up a damn big can of worms, and invites script kiddies en masse.

Quote:

Like pornography, viruses are ILLEGAL.

Huh, pornography illegal?

Quote:

Hacker - somebody who hacks into their own hardware/software without giving a hoot about other people's computer

Cracker - somebody who gains unauthorized access into another system that does not belong to them

Get your head out of the seventies.

Hacker: person that breaks into (mainly other peoples) computers
Cracker: person that removes software protection.
Post 03 May 2006, 10:48
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