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Vortex



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 318
Vortex
Quote:
It still requires the knowledge and effort.


Which efforts? To build malicious applications?

Quote:
If it might make you happier, we can remove all the headers from the source, so it won't be possible to compile it without the knowledge of assembler.


Is this your legal way to support viral codes in this forum?

Quote:
You wanted to say: that's not your fault, that my opinion is not what would you like it to be?


As you are the administrator, you are free to orient the forum whereever you wish. For the good or for the bad...

Quote:
I wouldn't use this word intechangeably with "destructive")


Do you know what's is the world's annual spending for AV? ...and tell me that today's viruses aren't destructive. If there are "good" computer viruses, what are the defining limits for people who can turn to become malicious coder?

Quote:
However I did see your argumentation to be a bit weak...


Reading your posts, the conclusion is that it's free to discuss about viral coding in this forum. Let's assume that you are confronting the "strong" argumentation, would it stop you from advocating viral code in this forum? Do you think that flatassembler.net is the right place to discuss this virus topic when there are a lot of other forums?

Let me remind you the famous Chinese saying :

Quote:
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step

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Post 26 Nov 2005, 10:43
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gunblade



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 209
gunblade
I feel kinda bad for continuing the long neverending discussion. But it's just so hard not to.

Quote:
There are a lot of other forums where an individual can discuss about viral codes. Why flatasssembler.net is a place to talk about this type of coding?


Why not? It's an assembly forum, the virus code is in assembly, and the guy wanted to know some details about how the code actually works. It doesnt matter what it is, virus, copyrighted OS code.. hell, the code to show a naked ASCII woman dancing. He is just wanting to understand the code, either for good or for evil as you say. But I'm pretty sure that if he was just wanting to create a virus and infect random people, he would just have assembled that source to begin with.

Oh, and another thing, you make it sound so easy to get infected with a virus. Really.. It either takes buggy software, or an idiot. Now I have been infected with viruses before, most of the time, it was my fault, running a file i shouldnt have, so I deserved to be infected. Also running IE, that was never a smart move. (Although it's gotten a bit better now, before IE-lovers flame me).

So for comparison.. Would you really stop someone from learning a subject such as chemistry or engineering just because you believed he might use it for bad?.. Learning is always good, it just depends what you use it for. But you shouldnt be trying to stop someone from learning something he shows an interest in.

gunblade Rolling Eyes
Post 26 Nov 2005, 11:56
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7721
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
Vortex wrote:
Which efforts? To build malicious applications?

Yes, you need an intention, without it why would you want to build it? When you do it, you've almost certainly got some reason, and you have to be aware of consequences.

Vortex wrote:
Is this your legal way to support viral codes in this forum?

For me none is the better. Actually when discussing AV development the viruses we would be talking about would be in the dissassembly form (hex bytes and related - not always perfectly disassembled instruction).

Vortex wrote:
Do you know what's is the world's annual spending for AV? ...and tell me that today's viruses aren't destructive. If there are "good" computer viruses, what are the defining limits for people who can turn to become malicious coder?

I didn't say there are any "good" viruses. Just that "malicious" don't neccesarily mean do te "destructive". The virus that just spreads iteself, doesn't "destroy", it's badness is actually caused by the fact that it "creates", and "creates" something we wouldn't need nor want (in large amounts usually). Well, you can say that it "destroys" the free space on your drive - that's just a playing with words. Anyway, I agree that every virus is malicious by the very fact that it is a virus. I never said that there are any "good" viruses.

Vortex wrote:
Reading your posts, the conclusion is that it's free to discuss about viral coding in this forum. Let's assume that you are confronting the "strong" argumentation, would it stop you from advocating viral code in this forum? Do you think that flatassembler.net is the right place to discuss this virus topic when there are a lot of other forums?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen many places discussing how to write AV software and fight viruses in general from the highly-skilled assembly programmers point of view. Note that writing AV requires actually much higher skills than writing a virus. I am willing to provide space for such discussions because I think that such skilled programmers as assembly ones should not be frightened by this topic. And, by the way, if more people were aware of how the viruses achieve the harm they do, the spread of viruses would get a bit smaller.
Post 26 Nov 2005, 12:04
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Vortex



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 318
Vortex
gunblade wrote:
Why not? It's an assembly forum, the virus code is in assembly, and the guy wanted to know some details about how the code actually works.


Understand that an asm forum with high quality should stay far away from topics related to viral coding. If the guy wants to know some "details" he's free to PM the board administration about his code.

gunblade wrote:
But I'm pretty sure that if he was just wanting to create a virus and infect random people, he would just have assembled that source to begin with.


If this forum assists him, what can stop him to improve his "abilities" ?

gunblade wrote:
Oh, and another thing, you make it sound so easy to get infected with a virus.


Same question for you : Do you know what's is the world's annual spending for AV?

gunblade wrote:
Would you really stop someone from learning a subject such as chemistry or engineering just because you believed he might use it for bad?..


No need to stop anyone from learning. Once again, understand that releasing extreme topics to public ( including viral codes ) and learning science with good intention are competely different matters.

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
you have to be aware of consequences.


Yes, that's right. Keep in mind that allowing members to submit viral codes with full source code or partially disassembled code might degrade this forum.

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
For me none is the better.


Tomasz, I see that there is no any rule in this forum restricting the users to post nonsense. Am I wrong? The prove is that you let a member insult me. No any action taken by you or the moderators. What are the ethic standards of this forum? Similar asm forums have strict rules. ( The guy edited his post but I didn't see any message warning him )

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
I never said that there are any "good" viruses.


Reread my previous post. I said IF there are "good" computer viruses. IF means maximum 0.5 probability here, my statement doesn't assume that you said I never said that there are any "good" viruses.

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
Just that "malicious" don't neccesarily mean do te "destructive".


Believe me, the ratio of today's destructive viruses is much more high than the ratio of just "malicious" viruses.

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen many places discussing how to write AV software and fight viruses in general from the highly-skilled assembly programmers point of view.

If you want to discuss here how to write AV software, put some rules so that people will not abuse the topic. This is my solution for this debate.

Let me remind you another famous saying :
Quote:
Power without control isn't power


Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
And, by the way, if more people were aware of how the viruses achieve the harm they do, the spread of viruses would get a bit smaller.


???

Do you need to know the chemical formulation of nicotine to give up smoking?

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Post 27 Nov 2005, 10:30
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7721
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
Vortex wrote:
Yes, Keep in mind that allowing members to submit viral codes with full source code or partially disassembled code might degrade this forum.

May, or may not; I am here to keep it consistent with my vision.

Vortex wrote:
Believe me, the ratio of today's destructive viruses is much more high than the ratio of just "malicious" viruses.

This reply seems to be very casual - thus we are finished with that topic?

Vortex wrote:
If you want to discuss here how to write AV software, put some rules so that people will not abuse the topic. This is my solution for this debate.

What rules would that be (other than standard phpBB rules)?
Note that the fact I'm arguing with you shows that I am aware of what I would like to be discussed here.

Vortex wrote:
Do you need to know the chemical formulation of nicotine to give up smoking?

You mean, unawarely letting viruses spread in your computer is like a kind of addiction?
Post 27 Nov 2005, 12:07
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vbVeryBeginner



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 884
Location: \\world\asia\malaysia
vbVeryBeginner
when you know how to use a gun, and when you feel like want to kill a person, you would use a gun to kill him.

when you don't know how to use a gun, and when you feel like want to kill a person, you just use a knife or something else which you know.

the more you know, the more dangerous you are when you are crazy or cannot control yourself or your desire.

if you are a teacher, and you know student A is a crazy guy, so, as a good and smart teacher, you don't teach him "how to use a gun". take an example of my country, they put some academic failed people into police force and teach them how to use gun!! so this bunch of "&&&&" use its power to do something destructive.

Naked woman incident a blow to country's image
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2005/11/26/nation/12699234&sec=nation

China believes women’s case an isolated case
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2005/11/26/nation/12700310&sec=nation

my point is, it is all right to teach av or even virus coding, but the people (teacher) need to make sure his/her (student) is not an idiot who would use that knowledge to do something destructive (for pleasure fun or to prove he/she could do it (like nike)).

and obviusly, we don't and shouldn't teach a person who just post the 1st message into this board. we don't know him/her is a good or bad student.
let say, if the person who want to learn is decard, matrix, vid, reverend and all those active board users, i think vortex would have no problem with them..

just my 2 cent.
Post 27 Nov 2005, 15:09
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
Vortex wrote:
...
Understand that an asm forum with high quality should stay far away from topics related to viral coding. If the guy wants to know some "details" he's free to PM the board administration about his code.
...Do you need to know the chemical formulation of nicotine to give up smoking?

1. In my opinion, this is a very high quality forum, and ANY subject relating to assembly language programming is fair game. This particular section of the forum, heap, is for political and extraneous topics, and EVEN this section is very dynamic and useful, so, while you are free to express your countervailing opinion, i.e. a belief in censorship, I hope that this forum will continue to obey an unwritten rule of TOLERANCE for divergent opinion.
2. This is what we call a non-sequitur in rhetoric. Your comment has nothing to do with the question of whether or not a particular topic should be banned from the forum. However, SINCE THIS FORUM tolerates a wide variety of topics, even those, which may be considered OFF-off topic, i.e. way off base, I will answer your question:
The more one knows about nicotinic receptors, the EASIER it is to abandon the drug addiction, known as smoking. In fact, nicotine addiction, NOT opiate addiction (heroin), is the most difficult and most toxic addiction of homo sapiens, and the more one understands the chemical structure of nicotine, and HOW it compels addiction, the easier it is to forgo it. (It isn't easy, in any circumstance). No non-human primate can be TAUGHT, with operant reinforcement methods, to commence smoking. (One must use electric shock avoidance to compel the animal to smoke) The point you sought to make, i.e. that one NEED NOT UNDERSTAND the inner workings of some banal aspect of a process in order to FORBID a discussion of the process, is a logical tendency for those raised in absolutist (religious) environments. Fortunately, though I was similarly raised in such a tobacco laden, carnivorous dining, smoke filled, DOGMATIC religious household, I managed to overcome all those influences, and today neither smoke, nor eat animal flesh, nor pray. Smile
Post 27 Nov 2005, 17:39
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JMGK



Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 27
JMGK
hi,

virus, as guns, as everything, should be free to be studied... else, we will have some kind of "forbidden knowledge", only a few "choosen" ones can use and control

everybody should know how a virus work, or how use a gun... but, if you use this knowledge, without a very good reason, then you should be punished

security by obscurity is never a good thing

is the same of having a gun in house, and hide it from your childrens, coz it is "dangerous". someday, if they find it, a disaster happen... better teach him what a gun is, and how it can be dangerous

jmgk
Post 27 Nov 2005, 18:02
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vbVeryBeginner



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 884
Location: \\world\asia\malaysia
vbVeryBeginner
i believe knowledge is for all, and everybody could learn what they wish to know.

Quote:
is the same of having a gun in house, and hide it from your childrens, coz it is "dangerous". someday, if they find it, a disaster happen... better teach him what a gun is, and how it can be dangerous


let us put some step-by-step pdf here or discuss how to make your bomb explode gracefully without fails Smile

so u say bomb and virus are different, but these (2 thingy) obviously could hurt others easily. a virus could renders the whole network down, company data damaged and whole lots more, making people wasted man power and hours to restore back all into normal.

Quote:
we will have some kind of "forbidden knowledge", only a few "choosen" ones can use and control

sometime, this is the only way to go. or, why don't the US gov takes some time to teach everybody how to fly an aeroplane? so they know the dangerous of aeroplane when it hits a building?
Post 27 Nov 2005, 19:06
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Artlav



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 188
Location: Moscow, Russia
Artlav
From virosophobiya to hardcore philosophy in 4 days - enough to prove the uselessness of the discussion.

Just one question: Anyone read the posted "virus" code?
Post 27 Nov 2005, 19:49
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Vortex



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 318
Vortex
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
May, or may not; I am here to keep it consistent with my vision.


Good to learn that you care of the level of the forum. Can you share with us your vision for this forum? Do you think that people will respect you more if you let people to abuse this very sensitive topic?

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
This reply seems to be very casual - thus we are finished with that topic?


???

Have a look at the latest virus threats in Symantec security response and tell me that what is malicious and / or destructive...

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
What rules would that be (other than standard phpBB rules)?
Note that the fact I'm arguing with you shows that I am aware of what I would like to be discussed here.


Come on Tomasz, since long time, you are a member of Harold's forum. Don't tell me that you had never a look at the forum rules...

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
You mean, unawarely letting viruses spread in your computer is like a kind of addiction?

Simply, you appear to misunderstand what I said. Let me explain you.
You said that if more people were aware of how the viruses achieve the harm they do, the spread of viruses would get a bit smaller.

How to make people aware of how the virus achieve the harm they do?

It's easy. You don't need to examine viral codes. People who desires learning how they do it can have a look at Security responses provided by AV companies. They give full descriptions. It should be enough. Tomasz, to turn on a TV , you don't need to learn electronics. if you are coughing because of excessive smoking, you don't need to know about the chemical formulation of nicotine to understand that smoking is harmfull. To understand the damages caused by atomic bombs, you don't need to learn particle physics. And people don't need to know about asm to understand the harms of computer viruses.

Tomasz, did you think ever, with money spended for AV, how many lives could be saved on this planet?

Finally, I didn't receive any reply from you about my question on why you let a member insult me?

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Code it... That's all...


Last edited by Vortex on 27 Nov 2005, 20:57; edited 1 time in total
Post 27 Nov 2005, 19:54
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Vortex



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 318
Vortex
tom tobias wrote:
the more one understands the chemical structure of nicotine, and HOW it compels addiction, the easier it is to forgo it. (It isn't easy, in any circumstance)


Are you aware of what are you talking about? To understand the structure of nicotine, you need to take at least one semester organic chemistry course. Now, examine the formula below and tell me what you understand about it :

Image

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Post 27 Nov 2005, 20:05
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Matrix



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1171
Location: Overflow
Matrix
Vortex,
google.com is full of viruses/cracks/serials, and is a known official hacking tool, just look at this page: http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/ , it is not hard to find virus on it for anyone i think, anyway if someone wants to make virus then probabyl will.
Post 27 Nov 2005, 20:27
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Vortex



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 318
Vortex
Matrix,

I don't care at all if Google or similar search facilities provides such tools. My extremely simple idea :

Like the other dedicated asm forums, flatassembler.net could not be the place to discuss viral coding.

Is it so hard to understand?

I think that all my efforts are in vain as the board administration is not willing to change the direction.

What is really unacceptable is that there is no any level of gentlemenship in this forum. It looks like that it's completely free to insult members in this forum.

Matrix, tell me now how it's possible to conduct a debate here if there is no any single rule of gentlemenship?

_________________
Code it... That's all...


Last edited by Vortex on 27 Nov 2005, 20:59; edited 1 time in total
Post 27 Nov 2005, 20:44
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Matrix



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1171
Location: Overflow
Matrix
Vortex,
it is not hard to understand, i dont support virus coding either.

but an old harmless snipplet can be educational, and generally it is, even if it was a virus or joke program

once i have lost long time ago many data because a one half clone too,

it formats random tracks on hdd at some intervalue time

that time i dont know what whould i do with the author of that "software"
Post 27 Nov 2005, 20:59
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Vortex



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 318
Vortex
Matrix,

The problem is not that the source code is educational or not. Once you permit it, they will ask more and more. Have a look at other asm forums and it will be not so difficult to discover the tricky questions intending to extract technical information for suspicious projects.

Matrix, the member insulted in me in the DOS forum. You are the moderator of that section. I am asking you : is it free to insult the users of this forum? If no why didn't you warn that member?

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Post 27 Nov 2005, 21:06
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Matrix



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1171
Location: Overflow
Matrix
if you notice any suspicious things or insultations at DOS forum, pm me.
Post 27 Nov 2005, 21:08
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Vortex



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 318
Vortex
The guy edited his message to remove some of his statements. Read the post from Mazegen and you will understand me.

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Post 27 Nov 2005, 21:15
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Matrix



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1171
Location: Overflow
Matrix
Vortex, sorry
i can t moderate him if he has moderated himself,
btw, i could not find the insultions, maeby Tomasz has already moderated them,

if you find anything bothering you PM me, its better if you post urls too.
Post 27 Nov 2005, 21:27
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7721
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
Vortex wrote:
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
This reply seems to be very casual - thus we are finished with that topic?


???

Have a look at the latest virus threats in Symantec security response and tell me that what is malicious and / or destructive...

This is not what we were talking about. I said you reply seemed "casual", because I see no connection to what we were talking about other that you'd like to have the last word in discussion.

Vortex wrote:
It's easy. You don't need to examine viral codes. People who desires learning how they do it can have a look at Security responses provided by AV companies. They give full descriptions.

OK, but we were mentioning the situation when you have no an AV company to help you with some new (maybe even dedicated for your computer) virus shows up.

Quote:
Finally, I didn't receive any reply from you about my question on why you let a member insult me?

I didn't notice any insult; well unless I look at this whole thread as a one big insult.
Post 27 Nov 2005, 22:27
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