flat assembler
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Index > Windows > In wich other language do you program ??

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How do you program now a days.
I program only in assembly.
21%
 21%  [ 8 ]
I do assembly and C/C++.
65%
 65%  [ 25 ]
I do Delphi and Visual Basic and Assembly.
13%
 13%  [ 5 ]
I do Java, Phyton and assembly.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 38

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zhak



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 490
Location: Belarus
zhak
I used to program in Delphi, VB long-long ago. But I gave up all high-level languages when I got acquainted with asm.
I tried lots of asm compilers, but now it is fasm only! nothing ever else!
Post 20 Apr 2006, 07:26
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Spidark



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 39
Spidark
zhak wrote:
I used to program in Delphi, VB long-long ago. But I gave up all high-level languages when I got acquainted with asm.
I tried lots of asm compilers, but now it is fasm only! nothing ever else!

Yeah i know the feeling,technicaly assembler is the first real language i ever sticked with, you cold say it's my first language.
Everybody kept telling me leave assembly, there nothing you can do with it , nothing usefull,but i think some on this board will disagree, including me.
It's a wondefull learning experience.
So for now i'm sticking with fasm ( it's my drug)
Sorry i'm hooked.. ssst you hear it calling.... ssst listen........ssssttt.

Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Post 20 Apr 2006, 10:47
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Patrick_



Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 53
Location: 127.0.0.1
Patrick_
Assembly, C, and I also know VB.NET (ugh) but I don't ever use it. Assembly is my favorite language. It's so powerful, and much, _much_ faster than anything a compiler could generate. Much more fun to code in than C, too.
Post 20 Apr 2006, 15:04
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Adam Kachwalla



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 150
Adam Kachwalla
Stupid people wrote:
...leave assembly, there's nothing you can do with it...
Do not listen to those people who say that. If you couldn't do anything with assembly, there would not be any true compilers, or any operating systems. Sure, they might say "use C/C++ instead", but in reality, it converts the code to ASM before compiling it! What was MenuetOS written in? Spidark: never give up, because some day we may be all using SpidarkOS rather than Windows/Macintosh.

I found flat assembler in late 2003 when I was looking for a 16-bit assembler, and it turned out to be better than NASM or MASM or any other assembler that I found.
Post 21 Apr 2006, 01:25
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vbVeryBeginner



Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 884
Location: \\world\asia\malaysia
vbVeryBeginner
i tried windows programming using C and C++
and i just couldn't understand why they want to make simple things hard

there are just too many kind of data types in c and c++ where in assembly language, you only deal with db dw dd (usually)

all those pointer and pointer to pointer or pointer to a pointer of a pointer looks so much easy to understand in assembly language compare to c/c++.

it is just 0 to 2^32 unique memory address and the eip to determine which address to go next. eax ebx ecx edx works as variable to store the value you want, a stack where you could push or pop data/address. and an instruction sets to modify the bits.

any idea why they want to make simple things hard?
Post 21 Apr 2006, 03:33
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zhak



Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 490
Location: Belarus
zhak
Quote:
any idea why they want to make simple things hard?

To my mind, all that capitalists just want to make things quickly. To earn more and more money. They don't really bother about system resources and other vital things. Is it normal for an OS to use 1GB of RAM, then 4, then 16...??? Many of those high-level programmers don't really understand how stuff works. They just know some functions and all the rest is just a black box for them. Dark times have come.... That's what I think.
Post 21 Apr 2006, 07:14
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RedGhost



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 443
Location: BC, Canada
RedGhost
i programme in C/ASM, started out with C++ then got sick of all the object shit and bloated code

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Post 21 Apr 2006, 11:26
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Adam Kachwalla



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 150
Adam Kachwalla
The problem with many high-level languages is the bloated output. Also, you get "compilers" with the sections split into a gazillion-and-two different files.

I'm not talking about the IDE: I'm only talking about the compiler The IDE and compiler should be in separate files (no more than TWO files). Sometimes the IDE and compiler are integrated: that's fine, provided it is easy to upgrade the compiler/IDE.

If MenuetOS was written in C, for instance, it would take up three or four floppy disks, rather than fit on one (1440K). This is because of the massive ammount of code that C places at the beginning. With ASM, you have control over what is in the file.

Many people who only work with high-level languages (such as C++, BASIC, etc.) do not realize that the computer is using ones-and-zeros rather than using words.

An expert ASM-only programmer will know a lot more about the computer's entrails than an expert BASIC-only programmer, for example.
It is handy to have more than one language on your belt.
Post 22 Apr 2006, 03:27
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
Adam Kachwalla wrote:
Many people who only work with high-level languages (such as C++, BASIC, etc.) do not realize that the computer is using ones-and-zeros rather than using words.

Some guys so much love to be abstracted, and then they start to spread out their plague: "What? C++ is the ONLY way to do it..." or "asm is useless". For me, this kind of attitude is simply childish. They don't have experience, and are simply consumptive about other people because they know more that they do.

Not only they don't have experience, they are also LIMITED by human-logic (words) instead of understanding the computer-logic (0s and 1s for software). Simple, you're programming for him, and doing it in his logic, via 1s and 0s. Smile

And the human-logic is also very flawed -- that's why we make mistakes.
computer-logic can't think (it is programmed to do something in certain situations) -- but it doesn't make mistakes.

I choose the second because I'm doing it for the computer, and therefore it is logical to assume that I must understand it's logic (at least, to know what's under the hood)
Post 22 Apr 2006, 10:52
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Spidark



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 39
Spidark
vbVeryBeginner wrote:
I just couldn't understand why they want to make simple things hard, there are just too many kind of data types in c and c++ where in assembly language, you only deal with db dw dd (usually)
all those pointer and pointer to pointer or pointer to a pointer of a pointer looks so much easy to understand in assembly language compare to c/c++.

I totaly agree with you here vbVeryBeginner.
The first time i hit those C/C++ books, i stranded at those pointers Confused , i was like what the....
But when i first came across assembly language, those pointers seems so easy, i agree.
Now i'm not flaming C/C++ or any other language, but when you go to debug citty your still gonna have to deal with assembly, if you like it or not.
And that's where my interest lies.

Adam Kachwalla wrote:
Spidark: never give up, because some day we may be all using SpidarkOS rather than Windows/Macintosh.

Wink still have a long way to go, but you never now.

Vlad Pirogov wrote:
So, why do you need the assembly language when programming for windows?.After all, there is C language to speak nothing of other high-level programming languages.The simplest and the most convincing answer to this question is that Assembly language is the processor's language; consequently, it will exist as long as processors exist.Other conclusive proof of the importance of Assembly language is that it is needed for optimizing program code,developing drivers,translators,programming some peripheral devices,etc.Finally,programming in Assembly language gives you a sence of power over the computer,and striving for power is a basic human instinct.

I rest my case.

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Post 22 Apr 2006, 17:12
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kasake36



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 68
kasake36
I've read that C creates about 15 times more machinecode than assembler; but a 1GHz CPU can process about 1 Billion instructions per second... Higher-Level-Programminglanguages are also referenced as "problem-oriented". And for complicated scientific stuff C++ seems a better choice than Assembler. (I can't come up with a test-scenario right now)
Post 24 Apr 2006, 09:43
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
asm is not nice for mathematical problems that are hard to define (big equations) but compute "quickly". If you need fast math, like finding big primes, asm is best solution.
Post 24 Apr 2006, 11:17
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Kuemmel



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Kuemmel
Yup, I think the same...the main reason for asm is speed and may be code size, at least it was when I think back doing asm for C64 Wink...and knowing asm makes you more aware of the whole computer, resources and whatever. I remember doing a printer plot routine for C64 in asm instead of basic and the printer even printed 10 times faster...

...but I enjoyed also doing some really small code for work in visual basic for excel, it's just like it is, everything for it's purpose...it's stupid to reinvent the wheel for something that's not worth it or in other words, in what it doesn't require speed or code size even if I would admire it. But if somebody tells you a compiler can optimise your code to the same speed as in assembler for the same algorithm it's just a lie and I hate software killing all resources just because somebody is using slow algorithms and doesn't think of assembler. A good example was the vector graphic software 'CorelDraw' in old times compared to 'Xara' (what was developed for Acorn Computers (ARM cpu) as !ArtWorks and ported to x86 later and was always fast as hell due to clever programming and the use of assembler).
Post 24 Apr 2006, 21:21
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
kasake36 wrote:
I've read that C creates about 15 times more machinecode than assembler; but a 1GHz CPU can process about 1 Billion instructions per second... Higher-Level-Programminglanguages are also referenced as "problem-oriented". And for complicated scientific stuff C++ seems a better choice than Assembler. (I can't come up with a test-scenario right now)

It's important to note that computers are not created with mathematics. Math is an abstracted science -- it does not employ nature's rules. Thus, a closer approximation would be Physics or Quantum Physics.

For example, take a look at negative numbers --> there is no such thing in computers, only 1s and 0s (in fact, 1s and 0s are not numbers, but a representation for them, be it voltage, holes like in CDs, pulses, whatever). Now, computers try to approximate the abstracted human-logic (yes, math) idea. That's analogous with C++ --> it doesn't really care about the computer internals, it just does human-logic stuff like math more easily than asm. Computer-logic is closed betwen 1s and 0s, believe it or not Wink

C++ hides many aspects of the internals of computers, that's why it's preferred for such 'choices'. If you can't believe it, take a look at real numbers: where's the '.' in computers? there's none! it only approximates this abstracted idea via different methods: floating point, fixed point or any other representation, but floats are internally only 0s and 1s.
Post 25 Apr 2006, 15:06
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Picnic



Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 1288
Location: behind the arc
Picnic
I know Basic, some C, and Actionscript. I'm new to Assembly language and Fasm.
Post 10 Jun 2007, 20:25
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DJ Mauretto



Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 464
Location: Rome,Italy
DJ Mauretto
C/ASM
C for fast mathematical calculations,
ASM for Love
Post 11 Jun 2007, 17:07
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m



Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 304
Location: in
m
ASM JAVA C++ PERL PYTHON JAVASCRIPT PHP VISUAL-BASIC

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Post 15 Jun 2007, 02:54
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AsmER



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 64
Location: England
AsmER
Before I started learning asm, I've been using Delphi and C/C++. Once I have learned fasm, I am using it to code everything :]
I like the way the code looks like, I like that my apps works faster and r smaller...
I just love fasm and I dont want to use anything else!

... well, I think I became a fasm-o-maniac lol
Post 17 Jun 2007, 21:53
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0.1



Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 474
Location: India
0.1
I thing Assembly and C++ combo is the best!
Post 26 Jul 2007, 04:14
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pjd



Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 47
pjd
much as I like assembly I am going to be forced to use VB.NET next year in my computing lessons in school
Post 26 Jul 2007, 09:29
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