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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
I think you are using the wrong word.
Nope. But I do think that you are using the wrong sequence of words:
revolution wrote:
Even it if were true that ...
Should have been: Even if it were true that ...

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:16
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
When they are new we "should" get 8 hours or so. But after some time and many charge-discharge cycles things are not so rosy anymore.
What do you mean by "some time"? How many cycles are you talking about?

As I mentioned, modern lithium polymer batteries tend to have good life-spans: around three to four years.

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:21
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17473
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
As I mentioned, modern lithium polymer batteries tend to have good life-spans: around three to four years.
You consider that good? I don't. That is terrible. And manufacturers lock these things permanently into the system. That is shameful.


Last edited by revolution on 05 Jun 2017, 06:36; edited 1 time in total
Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:34
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
I find non-standard battery packs with non-standard internal cells to be inferior, not any sort of "technological advancement".
That's why I find your reasoning or argument nothing but an excuse.

As I mentioned, your dream laptop must come from one manufacturer and must belong to one particular model & size. The corresponding lithium polymer battery must also be pretty standard. You can easily find a replacement battery in the next three to four years.

While I do know that you have a few spare 18650 cells and a soldering iron at your disposal, I suggest that you let go of the past and embrace the future. Laughing

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:35
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
YONG wrote:
As I mentioned, modern lithium polymer batteries tend to have good life-spans: around three to four years.
You consider that good? I don't. That is terrible. And manufacturers lock these things permanently into the system. That is shameful.
You're right -- the battery should last 20 years!

Nope. You can still remove and replace the battery -- you just need a screwdriver and a pry.

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:39
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17473
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
The corresponding lithium polymer battery must also be pretty standard. You can easily find a replacement battery in the next three to four years.
Well the 18650 cells are Li-ion, not Li-Poly. But anyhow, your assertion about ease of replacement is not something I have ever experienced. I cannot buy replacement battery packs for any of my systems. The shapes and mounting keep changing on newer models. There is no such thing as a standard battery pack shape or connector style IME.
Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:40
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
Well the 18650 cells are Li-ion, not Li-Poly.
I am talking about those thin, flat lithium polymer batteries. How come you would think that I was referring to those 18650 cells? Rolling Eyes

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Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:44
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
The shapes and mounting keep changing on newer models.
Really?

I bought an Acer Windows laptop in 2013, which is 11.6", weighs about 1.3 kg, has a touchscreen, uses a HDD, and of course, comes with a non-removable lithium polymer battery.

I bought an Acer Chromebook in 2016, which is 11.6", weights about 1.3 kg, does not have a touchscreen, uses a M.2 SSD, and of course, also comes with a non-removable lithium polymer battery.

Guess what? The two batteries are pretty much the same!

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:55
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
You're right -- the battery should last 20 years!
Batteries have terrible lifetimes. That is why they should never be a non-removable item.
YONG wrote:
Nope. You can still remove and replace the battery -- you just need a screwdriver and a pry.
Are you sure? Show me a new battery pack for sale for a laptop more than 10 years old. Even 5 years is pushing it.
Post 05 Jun 2017, 06:55
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
Show me a new battery pack for sale for a laptop more than 10 years old.
That is the crux of your fixation -- you expect that a laptop should last 10 years.

Technology is advancing in such an incredible speed that renders "old" products obsolete.

Try to embrace it.

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 07:03
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17473
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
Technology is advancing in such an incredible speed that renders "old" products obsolete.
They aren't obsolete really, they are just unusable due to dead batteries. I suppose many people consider unusable and obsolete as the same thing. But that ignores the reason for not being able to use something. Can you imagine a refrigerator that comes preloaded with food when new. Great, right. Now imagine that as you use that food you are unable to replace it because "technology is advancing" so the door is one way only (or whatever). So when the refrigerator is empty, just buy a new one, don't be an old fuddy-duddy, embrace the new refrigerator tech. Very Happy
Post 05 Jun 2017, 07:17
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
I suppose many people consider unusable and obsolete as the same thing.
Just like some forum member considers the upper-case "A" and the lower-case "a" the same letter. See, they are different!

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 08:38
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
Can you imagine a refrigerator that ...
You may want to use a better analogy next time. A refrigerator and a rechargeable battery are quite different; in fact, I don't think that they are comparable. Anyway.

As I mentioned, the crux is your unrealistic expectation -- you just expect that a laptop, or whatever tech, should last "forever", which, unfortunately, is not true in the real world.

Hope that you can find your dream laptop at an affordable price soon.

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 08:45
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1493
Furs
10 years is "forever"? I guess people who like or collected old classic cars must be superhuman who lived more than forever.

(and btw, there's no difference between a car and a PC if it's useable in this context; your only argument is more energy efficient, and guess what, that applies to cars too!)
Post 05 Jun 2017, 11:01
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
10 years is "forever"?
I expected that people like you would have something to say. That's why I had the adverb double-quoted. Anyway.

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 11:47
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17473
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
You may want to use a better analogy next time.
It was a demonstration of the logic you are applying to batteries, but applied to a different "tech". The battery is not the whole device. We shouldn't be defining the lifetime of the device by a single component IMO.
Post 05 Jun 2017, 14:26
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1493
Furs
Also, since energy efficiency is the only bad thing with old devices (as long as the owner is pleased with them, meaning they aren't too slow or whatever, like in this case), then...

...let's get rid of pretty GUIs or even colored-GUIs, they waste more processing power than grayscale or monochrome (imagine 1 bit per pixel, it's like 24 times less calculations!)
...let's get rid of high resolutions, no point in them at all, they waste processing power calculating pointless stupid stuff
...let's get rid of bloated software and use slim 16-bit software with extremely efficient 16-bit CPUs too, 32 and especially 64-bit operations are a waste of energy in 95% of "casual use" cases
...same with latest trends in other stupid pointless crap they bundle laptops with these days

(I'm not entirely sarcastic btw, especially on third point, software bloat is a big energy waster especially if they require a lot of RAM Wink )
Post 05 Jun 2017, 14:29
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Furs, you reminded me of this (although I've never seen, used, nor owned one ... sadly!): Poqet PC (circa 1989). I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't know what to do with it!
Post 05 Jun 2017, 18:13
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1493
Furs
Heh Smile That's quite an extreme though. I realize I was probably exaggerating, but useability is important for efficiency. A well designed (functional) GUI is important since the less time you spend using your PC for a task, the more efficient ultimately it is (unless it's doing heavy calculations).

However, none of this requires eye-candy or other "cool" looking GUIs. A monochrome GUI would be decent by itself (especially with a little dithering for extra shades) and likely just as functional as eye-candy bullshit. Also, resolutions not too low to hinder usability, but not high DPI crap ("Retina") which is a waste of energy. etc.

And lastly my personal favorite, lack of software bloat, since let's face it, majority of apps in such an environment I described above would barely need 64kb of RAM and thus 16-bit would suffice! For casual use that's sufficient. (maybe browser would be an exception for such).

So a sort of mix between an embedded CPU and a normal one that could switch between efficient 16-bit mode and 32-bit for the fewer apps, but ofc it would have to be designed specifically for this task. (every pointer used probably uses twice as much power (if the CPU is designed for 16-bit operations of course) on 32-bit (or 4 times on 64); well, except if it's smart and actively turns off higher bits without even an instruction that clears them (since pointers can have any value), but that can introduce stalls and complexity to the CPU since it has to wait for the pointer's value itself, which means more power use Wink).
Post 05 Jun 2017, 22:15
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
YONG wrote:
You may want to use a better analogy next time.
It was a demonstration of the logic you are applying to batteries, but applied to a different "tech". The battery is not the whole device. We shouldn't be defining the lifetime of the device by a single component IMO.
Like those researchers of MIT, I must be wrong. As always, you're right. Like a laptop, a refrigerator needs regular software updates; otherwise, it will become outdated and can no longer serve its functions properly. What a perfect analogy!

Wink
Post 06 Jun 2017, 03:20
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