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Do you think that it is possible to create a semi-useful OS in 512 BYTES???
Yes
47%
 47%  [ 19 ]
No
45%
 45%  [ 18 ]
Undecided
7%
 7%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 40

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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
ASHLEY4
Quote:

Is that January 10, or October 1?


October 1 2004

\\\\|////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 17 Aug 2004, 00:10
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siddhartha



Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 7
siddhartha
October 1 2004 of course! Smile



/siddhartha
Post 17 Aug 2004, 07:31
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Gomer73



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 151
Gomer73
I have a question and an opinion even though I won't be competing.

I think it would be good to have the common bochs settings file.

My question was, what do you mean by boot without any external assistance? If the OS is only 512 bytes(one sector) then it doesn't need to load anything else. I can see this for larger OS', but for boot sectors the bios loads and runs, the boot sector doesn't need to load anything.

...Gomer73
Post 19 Aug 2004, 15:19
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decard



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1092
Location: Poland
decard
External assistance may mean using GRUB that will load your 512-byte OS
and set PM for you etc.

So does everybody agree to rules proposed by Ashley? I think that problem is with point 8, if you disallow to run some external program on your OS, you would make point 6 (compression) useless...
Post 19 Aug 2004, 18:10
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
ASHLEY4
Hi decard, This is how easy it is, for the same rule, can mean two different things to different people. you tuck rule 6) to mean as long as the decompressed code/data fit's in 512byte then it is ok to use., i tuck it to mean as long as the compresser/decompresser fit's in to 512byte's it is ok.

But i thought as it is a fasm forum, it is better to show what fasm can do with out a external compression program run over it, and what these compression programs do, Fasm does any way, so you will not see not much or any difference.

So if you want this bit of rule 8 )
"and have no external program modify the fasm output"
to be cut out, then that fine by me, any one else have a problem with it being cut out ?

I have added another rule , let me know if any one disagree's with any rule's.

512b compo rule's
;******************

1. Valid entries are those submitted at http://512.decard.net before 1/10/2004 00:00 (GMT)

2. The maximum size for all code and data compiled, is limited to 512 bytes, but there is no
limit on size of memory used.

3. The OS should be stand alone and boot without any external assistance, but use of BIOS is allowed.

4. The winning OS will be the one, judged to have the largest number of different features, or the best single feature, that fits in the given limit and is self booting.

5. It is in the interest of the participant to make it run in BOCHS, as this is what most people will test it with, but not mandatory.

6. There is no limits to the used algorithms or data compression as long as decompresser fits within given limit.

7. The winner is defined by public vote and arbitrated by (someone that does not want to participate)

8. All entries must be able to be assembled with Fasm .

9. All entries, must provied source code for there OS, but not until, after the 1/10/2004 00:00 (GMT), if after 1/10/2004 00:00 (GMT) the winner does not provide the source code they will be disqualified.

10. Only (Fasm Forum) Members Registered on or before 1 September 2004 ,will be allowed to enter and vote, no participant can vote for there own entry, and each member is limited to one entry.

NOTE: People who are not member's on the above date, can still vote for the one they like, But it will not be courted, as to who won over all.

;******************************************************

We have until 23rd of August 2004, to get the rule's sorted, then we go publice to let people know about the compo, may be "slashdot" Wink.

\\\\|////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 20 Aug 2004, 14:58
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pelaillo
Missing in inaction


Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Colombia
pelaillo
Good point 2 Exclamation It renders superfluous the point 6

I have only one concerning about point 5, because what about if one entry *runs* only in a very-nifty hardware configuration and there is no way to certify that...Question

To decard:
Could your server identify each vote against a fixed ip address?
Post 20 Aug 2004, 18:25
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decard



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1092
Location: Poland
decard
You mean to allow only one vote from single IP, right? Sure, I can make that.

What about final voting? Do you want each person to give single vote, or maybe some more complicated system? For example. you could give 3 points for the best OS in your opinion, 2 points for your second choice etc.
Post 20 Aug 2004, 20:20
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
ASHLEY4
Here are some answer's to the above ?, i will not be using BOCHS, this is because if it will not run on most system's, then it is no good, because that what we are about making OS etc, that need to run on most system's.

But some people do not like running unknown code on there pc, so that is Y rule 5. is there, if my entry does not run in BOCHS (as i will not test it in it) and they do not want to test it on a real pc, than it is simple, do not vote for it.

To me we keep it simple, by only having registered members vote, we can check for user name's. eg "ASHLEY4" can only vote once, and not for myself.

I can use a proxy IP and vote 100 time's from all over the world and you would not know about it, (just try doing a search for free proxy).

Also each member should vote 5 point's for the one they think is best, no second, or third, just first.

PS: decard, Can you up date the 512b web site with the new rule's and voting info as there is no way for a public vote to be made fair.

\\\\|////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.


Last edited by ASHLEY4 on 21 Aug 2004, 01:12; edited 1 time in total
Post 21 Aug 2004, 00:48
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crc



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 637
Location: Penndel, PA [USA]
crc
Quote:
Here are some answer's to the above ?, i will not be using BOCHS, this is because if it will not run on most system's, then it is no good, because that what we are about making OS etc, that need to run on most system's.

But some people do not like running unknown code on there pc, so that is Y rule 5. is there, if my entrie does not run in BOCHS (as i will not test it in it) and they do not want to test it on a real pc, than it is simple, do not vote for it.


I have a simple approach: if it won't run under Bochs, then I won't vote for it. It's not because I dislike running unknown code on my computer (512 bytes is pretty easy to disassemble anyway). Some things (like VESA) don't work properly on my laptop. If you use them, I wouldn't be able to run it anyway. It wouldn't be hard to write a program that only runs on my PC.
Post 21 Aug 2004, 01:09
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
ASHLEY4
I also have a simple approach: if it only run's in BOCHS, i will not vote for it, as i do not have or intend on geting BOCHS, so will not be able to test it.
But i am really looking forward to the compo as, i have learned so much already and who ever win's, we can all learn from and that what it's all about making better and better program's .
Even as i code this entry, i am already thinking about the next one Cool.

\\\\|////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 21 Aug 2004, 02:15
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pelaillo
Missing in inaction


Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Colombia
pelaillo
But if it runs in BOCHS it is almost sure it works on a real PC.
It seemed to me a good neutral ground because is small, simple, is available for near all platforms and behaves the same way.

If you prefer to avoid using BOCHS, it is ok. But as crc said, I prefer to test entries using it (simpler than rebooting each time)

Regarding the public vote, I didn't intend to substitute your rule 10, only to complement to it. Moreover, as proxies are not infallible, a simpler method could be to go to an internet caffè. But that was merely an idea, imho not really needed (nor useful) because as you've said the prize here is the learning Smile a win-win compo !
Post 21 Aug 2004, 04:15
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
ASHLEY4
I have no problem with people using BOCHS (It's a very usefull program) and better than rebooting, but it's not a program i use, so rule 5. is fare to both parties Smile.

PS: If i had a £ , for ever time i see this in a OS forum, i would be rich.
"My OS work's in BOCHS, but not on a real pc Y."

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 21 Aug 2004, 13:17
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Gomer73



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 151
Gomer73
Well I submitted my entry, guess I decided to enter after all.
The upload and download feature appears to work, just copy it to the boot sector of a floppy(or use bochs).

I think making the OS run in bochs is a mistake. My program runs fine on any real computer, but kind of hangs on bochs. At least it seems to run fast in bochs. Seems to freeze for some reason and I am not doing anything weird, I think it doesn't do the timer tick properly maybe? Bochs is only a developmental program, and os'es are usually trying unique things.

I don't know if you would call what I did an OS. I didn't like the programming techniques I used to make it fit it into the 512, but you gotta do what you gotta do. It does demonstate graphics compression in a way, but nothing I could really get into too well in 512 bytes. Maybe this will start the programs flowing. At least it gave me interest to work on my PM-OS again.

...Gomer73
Post 21 Aug 2004, 21:59
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Tomasz Grysztar



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7797
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
I wouldn't recommend taking BOCHS as a requirement - it even cannot emulate the unreal mode correctly.
Post 21 Aug 2004, 22:03
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crc



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 637
Location: Penndel, PA [USA]
crc
Quote:
I wouldn't recommend taking BOCHS as a requirement - it even cannot emulate the unreal mode correctly.


No x86 emulator that I'm aware of is perfect Sad I'll try each OS under Bochs and Qemu (which is faster and more accurate on some things) before voting.

I've finally pulled together some ideas for my entry; now to start coding it...
Post 21 Aug 2004, 22:19
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decard



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1092
Location: Poland
decard
I changed the rules to the latest set, and removed fake entries.
My idea about final voting: I will add a new panel for voting, but it will be enabled after the deadline. I will allow (for exsample) 7 days for voting, after those 7 days the result will become visible, and we will have a winner Smile
Tomorrow I'm leaving for a week, I will prepare voting system when I'm back (there's still more than a month before the compo's end). During this time please agree about Bochs, and prepare final version of the rules.

regards
Post 22 Aug 2004, 11:35
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
ASHLEY4
Gomer73, Nice to see your going to enter, also the rule's say you can either program a OS (with many feature's in) or a bootable program (with one big feature in ) so has long as it's bootable and fit's the other rule's then it's ok.

May i take this opportunity, to Thank Privalov for a superb assembler, i use to program with tasm and have only been using fasm for about 6 month's, but the more i use it, the more i like it.
You are a true HACKER (in the old sense ) Smile.

I have also decide not to testing any entry's till i have posted mine, as i do not want to be influenced by other entry's.

PS: Thanks decard, for your work on the 512b web site.

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 22 Aug 2004, 12:25
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adefeo



Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Bellmore, Long Island, New York
adefeo
Not that i'm complaining, but how did my poll question EXPLODE into a contest! BTW how/where/when do I have to submit my OS
Post 23 Aug 2004, 12:40
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
ASHLEY4
I may be to blame Smile.
The rules and deadline are all here: http://512.decard.net
You can upload your entry to the site or download other entry's.
Entry's can be a 512 byte bin file's or BOCHS image etc, you can put your entry in a zip, with a little info if you want, but you can not upload more than 10k file size.

Good luck.

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 23 Aug 2004, 16:34
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decard



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1092
Location: Poland
decard
So I guess that the rules are ready? If yes, somebody could post info about the contest in main forum (It will become visible so it could attract more competitors Smile ), and we could ask Privalov to make it an announcement (for the remaining month).

Oh, one more thing. What about modifing rule 10:
Quote:
10. Only (Fasm Forum) Members Registered on or before 1 September 2004 ,will be allowed to enter and vote, no participant can vote for there own entry, and each member is limited to one entry.

I think it is too restrictive, giving more time for registering would also attract more people.

regards,
decard
Post 31 Aug 2004, 15:53
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