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Index > Heap > Pope to grant Catholic priests right to forgive abortion

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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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YONG
Refer to:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/21/europe/pope-francis-absolve-abortion/index.html?adkey=bn

Does the Pope actually have such a power? Rolling Eyes

If so, he is like a statesman having the power to pardon an offender.

Wink
Post 21 Nov 2016, 12:24
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
Not so long ago it was heresy to say the Earth was orbiting the Sun.
YONG wrote:
Does the Pope actually have such a power?
Yes, if people let him have such power over them. If nobody listened to him then he would have no power anymore.
Post 21 Nov 2016, 12:32
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
revolution wrote:
Not so long ago it was heresy to say the Earth was orbiting the Sun.


That's not what heresy (formal or informal) is. Saying 2+2=5 isn't heresy either. Heresy is, more or less, direct contradiction of what the Church teaches. One must always obey the Church in moral matters.

[re: breaches of the first commandment] "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same" -- CCC, 2089

Quote:
Does the Pope actually have such a power?
Quote:
Yes, if people let him have such power over them. If nobody listened to him then he would have no power anymore.


Disbelieving the power of the priesthood (which is irrevocable) in no way invalidates any actual power (whether temporal or spiritual). The Pope (an elected cardinal) is the Vicar of Christ, the successor to St. Peter, and the Bishop of Rome.

While the nature of the priesthood is permanent, every priest is only able to perform his duties thanks to permission from his bishop (and bishops are successors to the Apostles). So without permission, an active priest on the job can do very very little.

The Church is supposed to be our mother, the bride of Christ. There is only one Church, and Christ is the head. Therefore we are supposed to be in communion with what God wants, united in truth, not to be independent and fractured.

The seven sacraments instituted by Christ are crucial to the Church. Of course, if you aren't baptized and don't read the Catechism or go to Church, you won't understand this. One of the main ones is Reconciliation (aka, Confession), meant for forgiveness of any serious sins committed after baptism. The guilt does not go away on its own, and in ordinary circumstances God will not absolve without a priest. (Jesus is God, man, priest, prophet, king, Messiah.)

Although it's not a pleasant topic, abortion is very widespread but also an "objective evil". Even without full knowledge and consent, which incurs the most wrath, the child is still innocent and still dies. It is not appropriate to encourage or participate in the death of an innocent child. The feast of Divine Mercy was in explicit reaction to the evil of abortion. Considering that the sacrament of Holy Matrimony is explicitly meant for the procreation of children, lust/adultery (even internal) is forbidden by the commandments, and that children are a gift from God (cf. Psalms 127), then abortion should never be an option because the child is always wanted, for the goodness of the family (domestic church, school of work) and society at large.

While some falsely claim that abortion is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible (despite constant opposition from the Church, whom they ignore and despise), there is mention (cf. Galatians 5:20) of "φαρμακεία" (pharmakeia), aka sorcery/potion presumably used to induce abortion (after pregnancy resulting from aforementioned sexual sins).

We all know where children come from, and there is no dispute. It is not a tumor, it is not a disease, it is a human being (with body parts, made terrifyingly obvious afterwards). Abortion is not a virtue and should be entirely avoided, even if you don't fully understand or believe in the gravity of it.

Shedding innocent blood cries out to heaven for justice. God is patient for those who may mend their ways, but those who refuse His mercy will encounter His wrath. (Psalms 14) "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is good."

So yes, it is heresy for a baptized person to directly contradict the Church in moral matters. But sheer ignorance or confusion or logical error is not a sin.
Post 22 Nov 2016, 01:44
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
rugxulo wrote:
We all know where children come from, and there is no dispute. It is not a tumor, it is not a disease, it is a human being (with body parts, made terrifyingly obvious afterwards). Abortion is not a virtue and should be entirely avoided, even if you don't fully understand or believe in the gravity of it.
Even when the pregnancy threatens the mother's life or health? Rolling Eyes

Refer to:

Doctors say abortions do sometimes save women's lives
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/19/abortion-mother-life-walsh/1644839/

Abortion in self-defence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/philosophical/selfdefence.shtml

Wink
Post 22 Nov 2016, 04:56
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
rugxulo wrote:
revolution wrote:
Not so long ago it was heresy to say the Earth was orbiting the Sun.
That's not what heresy (formal or informal) is.
Yeah it was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair
rugxulo wrote:
Disbelieving the power of the priesthood (which is irrevocable) in no way invalidates any actual power (whether temporal or spiritual).
Yeah it does. If no one except the pope was a catholic, then the pope would have no power at all. Also nothing is "irrevocable". All it would take is for enough people to realise the religions are simply human invented fantasies and suddenly all the books, priests and other fantasy based things would have no power over anyone. This goes for all religions, governments and anyone in power.


Last edited by revolution on 22 Nov 2016, 23:36; edited 1 time in total
Post 22 Nov 2016, 09:12
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
revolution wrote:

All it would take is for enough people to realise the religions are simply human invented fantasies and suddenly all the books, priests and other fantasy based things would have no power over anyone. This goes for all religions, governments and anyone in power.

and what are your solutions to people who simply don't have such processing power to realize all mentioned above?
Post 22 Nov 2016, 23:14
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
rugxulo wrote:

children are a gift from God

making love, having sexual intercourse doesn't mean the girl / women / wife / girlfriend / your partner will get pregnant

but by not making love and sexual intercourse, vagina touching etc, girl / women / wife / girlfriend / your partner will certainly never get pregnant in most cases.

if these healthy children are gift from god, how bout those disabled children, gift from god too? curse from god?
Post 22 Nov 2016, 23:25
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
if these healthy children are gift from god, how bout those disabled children, gift from god too? curse from god?
For me, a man of science, the answer is that those children are simply unfortunate. Something went wrong before conception or during the early stages of prenatal development, which could be natural or induced. Refer to:

Are there ever errors during DNA replication?
https://www.quora.com/Are-there-ever-errors-during-DNA-replication

How Chromosome Abnormalities Happen: Meiosis, Mitosis, Maternal Age, Environment
http://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=how-chromosome-abnormalities-happen-meiosis-mitosis-maternal-age-environment-90-P02126


For believers, the answer is: God works in mysterious ways.

Wink
Post 23 Nov 2016, 01:36
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
revolution wrote:

All it would take is for enough people to realise the religions are simply human invented fantasies and suddenly all the books, priests and other fantasy based things would have no power over anyone. This goes for all religions, governments and anyone in power.

and what are your solutions to people who simply don't have such processing power to realize all mentioned above?
I'm not trying to suggest solutions. I'm not even suggesting that anything needs solving. But in the general sense the scientific method is a start. Not just any scientific method, the scientific method. And for those wondering, yes even scientists can fool themselves and come to the wrong conclusions, they are humans also. But the scientific method, the real one, when followed properly will eventually tease out what is going on. But it requires dedication, hard work and patience.

Edit:
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/the-dark-rigidity-of-fundamentalist-rural-america-a-view-from-the-inside/ wrote:
When a 3,000-year-old book that was written by uneducated, pre-scientific people, subject to translation innumerable times, edited with political and economic pressures from popes and kings, is given higher intellectual authority than facts arrived at from a rigorous, self-critical, constantly re-evaluating system that can and does correct mistakes, no amount of understanding, no amount of respect, no amount of evidence is going to change their minds, assuage their fears.
I decided not to hyperlink the source because it is mostly just a rant of little relevance to this topic, but the quote above is pertinent here IMO.
Post 23 Nov 2016, 09:52
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
what actually happening with human?

what actually blocking every human to sit down, non-violence, talk, discuss and exchange views?

not for the sake to win the arguments, but to find a way or ways trying methods / solutions / ideas to create a better win win environment for everybody

because attitude like i close my mind, i don't want to talk anymore, no further discuss, you are wrong, i am right?

and how is we are right and problems still unsolved make us any closer to truth or better solutions?

ah ha, i think i know the answer,

we don't really care about what is actually happening, we only care about what we want, what are important to us, what we want to keep, we don't really bother anything else which not in our radar
Post 23 Nov 2016, 13:48
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
we only care about what we want, what are important to us, what we want to keep, we don't really bother anything else which not in our radar
Exactly. That is what Trump has just said:
Quote:
My agenda will be based on a simple core principle -- putting America first.
Refer to:

Trump releases video detailing plan for first 100 days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzDaWfIDzpk

Wink
Post 24 Nov 2016, 03:36
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