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Index > MenuetOS > Bug in MenuetOS 0.77

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pelaillo
Missing in inaction


Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Colombia
pelaillo
bloglite wrote:
Add to the list "one who writes a virus when one did not exist."

Next time it could be written by someone else and it could be harmful.

Quote:
My right to disagree.

Of course, I will always respect that.
Post 28 Jul 2004, 21:03
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fasm9



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 439
fasm9
IMO, MenuetOS still in immature state, so filesystem, security infra-structure, CLI, portability(gcc, libc), even in GUI a bit lack.

This is common in assembly nature, need more FASM developers, more nice architecture designers.
Post 28 Jul 2004, 22:00
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crc



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 637
Location: Penndel, PA [USA]
crc
Quote:
Anyone here like virii other than our hobbiest here?


Well, I've never written any virii, but I do find them fascinating. In spite of that, I don't support writing of malware. Virii don't have to be harmful though, the study of replication and so on is pretty cool IMO. I'd say that non-malware proof of concept virii can be useful, as long as they are well documented and released to major virii researchers. Personally, I like compiling everything from source, so virii haven't caused me much trouble there Smile
Post 28 Jul 2004, 23:05
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SPTH



Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 91
SPTH
Gomer73:
Nice answere, thank you! Even, I think that you didn't really understand what I wrote.
- I won't ever spread the virus (nor any other virus I made or anybody else's virus)
- I won't code a AV for MenuetOS, and even if I would, it would be freeware and open source as everything for MenuetOS.
- My purpose was to lear about MenuetOS, it's filestructur and more assemble
- I don't want to destroy anybody's data nor anything else. (Even the virus don't destroy anything)



crc:
And, it is well documented.

greets, ...
Post 29 Jul 2004, 00:09
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
Sorry to be so old fashioned here, but I find it quite disappointing to read about woman from russia one day, and virus writers the next. This is a forum of folks trying earnestly to CREATE something useful, and I just feel very sad and depressed when I encounter such nonsense here. Please go spread your viruses somewhere else, and take the lady from Russia with you. That's my opinion. Sad
Post 29 Jul 2004, 15:53
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SPTH



Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 91
SPTH
tom tobias:
"to CREATE something useful"
The topic is about the bug in MenuetOS 0.77!
I haven't started with the virus topic, but the guy's entry, who started, was deleted and even my entry second entry was changed! (parts are missing).

"Please go spread your viruses"
pure ignorance!
Post 29 Jul 2004, 16:35
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fasm9



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 439
fasm9
They want to know whether you are white-hat or black-hat.

i think you are white-hat, because black-hat don't talk, only act.

--
me: only talk, don't act Wink
Post 29 Jul 2004, 17:16
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Gomer73



Joined: 29 Nov 2003
Posts: 151
Gomer73
Not too sure what the woman from Russia meant.

I think SPTH actually did us a favour and we should thank him.

There are people that will write viruses just for the fun of it. Wish it didn't happen, but it does. The OS should be made so that the effect is minimized. But I think menuet is far from this stage to prevent this, it is still in the building phase. Even tougher to do the later you start this though.

The source code thing doesn't really fly. Someone could hide a Trojan in source code that would be tough to find, especially when the source code grows to be pretty large.

I had to now redesign my OS to prevent viruses. It is complicated, the only way to do it easily is to setup some kind of user system. This is far beyond where menuet is right now. So yes viruses can easily affect it, but I am not too sure if there are any plans to change menuet security at this point. Until this is done a virus scanner won't do much good.

Not too sure why the posts were deleted or changed. Didn't seem anything malicious about them.

Right now viruses can be made too easily for menuet, so making one now is kind of a waste of time. If there are a thousand ways to penetrate menuet, why pick one way and write the antivirus code for it, better to design the OS so that there are only 10 ways to penetrate it.
Post 29 Jul 2004, 17:33
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fasm9



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 439
fasm9
most easy way to cut off viruses is
change filesystem to Reiser4 or JFS(IBM's open source property), EXT3, XFS, FFS.. only not choose FAT16/32/NTFS of MS.

http://www.ebcvg.com/news.php?id=3123
Post 29 Jul 2004, 18:01
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BlueOwl



Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 14
BlueOwl
My first entry was deleted too.

I agree with Gomer73, making such a test virus will light the security aspects of MenuetOS so the developpers take it into mind when further designing the OS. Do not kill the messenger.
Post 30 Jul 2004, 17:22
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t00fic



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 1
t00fic
fasm9 wrote:
most easy way to cut off viruses is
change filesystem to Reiser4 or JFS(IBM's open source property), EXT3, XFS, FFS.. only not choose FAT16/32/NTFS of MS.

http://www.ebcvg.com/news.php?id=3123


what a lame comment...

changing a file system will not stop your files to be infected unless you got a monitor on file activity.
Post 02 Aug 2004, 05:36
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compilax



Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
compilax
I dont see what the problem is with pointing out vulnerabilities. Theres even a plus for malicious virii - computer technicians get called more often Smile. What he does is both a little bad and very good - he points out vulnerabilities, but unfortuanately some people [presumeably] read his articles to exploit the vulnerabilities - which, in any popular open source OS or one made by a company other than M$, will be removed before such virii do any damage.

Virii are just a method of causing damage, the people who make and spread them (_not_ SPTH - he makes virii to point out bugs!) are the evil ones. You can't say people shouldnt make knives because some people use them to kill people.

BTW whats with that filesystems comment?
Post 02 Aug 2004, 06:51
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crc



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 637
Location: Penndel, PA [USA]
crc
Quote:
I had to now redesign my OS to prevent viruses. It is complicated, the only way to do it easily is to setup some kind of user system. This is far beyond where menuet is right now. So yes viruses can easily affect it, but I am not too sure if there are any plans to change menuet security at this point. Until this is done a virus scanner won't do much good.


Well, you'll never prevent all viruses, unless you don't allow users to run programs that can access the hardware! (For example, if you had a VM that provided everything the apps needed, and didn't allow loading machine code apps, you could prevent viruses).

I disagree on the virus scanner. It could prove very useful. Why? If you keep it up to date, and scan apps/docs when they are opened, you will block most viruses from being able to do anything. This is basically code scanning, and is a very useful approach to stop viruses.
Post 02 Aug 2004, 08:12
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fasm9



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 439
fasm9
t00fic wrote:
what a lame comment...

changing a file system will not stop your files to be infected unless you got a monitor on file activity.


can you run old fat16/32 virus on winxp/2003??? ??

--
Post 02 Aug 2004, 09:59
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compilax



Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
compilax
I don't see why it would make much difference for anything - Linux on EXT2 will run more or less the same on any other FS - apps won't know the difference, and they will still manipulate files the same way.
Post 02 Aug 2004, 10:11
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crc



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 637
Location: Penndel, PA [USA]
crc
Quote:
can you run old fat16/32 virus on winxp/2003???


Windows XP can be installed with FAT32. Besides, there weren't that many bootsector/mbr viruses out there! The file system will not protect you from viruses.
Post 02 Aug 2004, 11:02
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fasm9



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 439
fasm9
you mean fat16/32 viruses can run on ntfs?

--
Post 02 Aug 2004, 11:23
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compilax



Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
compilax
I've never heard of someone making a virus specifically for fat32 - there might be a few virii that are filesystem specific, but regardless of which FS is being used, things still look the same to apps - they do the exact same thing to open a file wether they are running on NTFS, fat32 or even some Linux FS whilst running in Wine.

For example say you wrote a very simple virus that just deleted a file - if you ran it in windows 98 (on fat32), it would delete that file, if you run it on XP (on NTFS), guess what it will do... delete the file.

Maybe you got the impression that better filesystems are less virus prone because Windows 9x runs on FAT filesystems and NT/XP/200x runs on NTFS - Windows 9x is far more prone to virii than the NT range, but it isnt because of the FS.
Post 02 Aug 2004, 12:12
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crc



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 637
Location: Penndel, PA [USA]
crc
They can run, but not do much damage. Windows NT has pretty good protection, but it's by no means perfect; especially if you're an admin. And even if it did prevent them from running, you still have all of the non filesystem/bootsector/mbr viruses to worry about!

Windows, like all modern OSes, abstracts away the differences in file system. Few tools, viruses, etc depend on the file system to work.
Post 02 Aug 2004, 12:18
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fasm9



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 439
fasm9
it called compatibility,
IF NTFS has no compatibility with FAT16/32, then still the virus act on it? and what if WINfs(maybe from win2005~ win2006?) don't supports them? (it surely to me, DB+ACL+fs)

it should not be treat filesystem as plain thing. IMHO, it's everything(TM).

In Linux(actually Unix), almost thing is file. VFS(virtual file system) make different fs talk each other.

For example, in kernel compile,
if don't check FAT16/32/VFAT/NTFS and don't check other binary format but only ELF enabled, then how win32/dos virus works??
Post 02 Aug 2004, 14:38
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