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typedef



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Post 18 Jul 2015, 20:04
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l_inc



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
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typedef
The whole story was pretty much clear within the first days after the crash. First most prominent indications appeared like within an hour on social network pages of terrorist leaders claiming to have shot a Ukrainian military aircraft. These messages were removed after they realized they shot a civilian airliner.

What was unclear is whether the SAM carrying vehicle delivered from Russia the day before was operated by the terrorists or by the actual Russian regular military personnel. There were radio recordings with indications for the latter version.

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Post 19 Jul 2015, 00:55
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fasmnewbie



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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fasmnewbie
I think it was shot by an AAM not BUK as claimed. The debris pattern and chunks proves a much smaller missile (aka AAM) coming from a fighter jet. BUK won't leave that much debris for us to see.

The fact that the missile hit the cockpit area indicates that it was a radar-seeking missile. I don't think BUK is a radar-seeking / homing SAM.
Post 19 Jul 2015, 03:09
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typedef



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I_inc
So who are the terrorists?

fasmnewbie
According to the conversation log yes. It was a fighter jet.
Post 19 Jul 2015, 04:12
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l_inc



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
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typedef
Quote:
So who are the terrorists?

People you hear on the video.

Quote:
According to the conversation log yes. It was a fighter jet.

The problem is there was no fighter jet involved. The aircraft they are talking about is this one, which is a ground-attack aircraft physically unable to shot the Boeing at it's crash height. This was discussed so many times that I can't believe there are still people outside Russia keeping that nonsense in their minds. That's aside from the natural understanding that shotting a civilian airliner on purpose is nonsense by itself.

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Post 19 Jul 2015, 13:32
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Bargest



Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Posts: 79
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Bargest
Quote:
That's aside from the natural understanding that shotting a civilian airliner on purpose is nonsense by itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
Quote:
According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft.[4][5]

Don't say "nonsence" when you talk about ext. politics. There is NO politician in the whole world, who will think like "Oh god, I'm killing civilians! I shouldn't do it, they are not involved in my conflicts!". Any politician will order to kill people if he wants it, even citizens of his country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Quote:
The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other US government operatives to commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets, blaming it on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba.

About video - you can find lots of idiots in DNR/LNR, and in Ukraine too. Any of them could fire a civilian plane. DNR/LNR army had more "chances" to do it, but confusing Boeing at 10km height with a ukrainian bomber sounds strange. One more strange thing - HOW did this plane even appeared on a territory that is in war?! What idiot was a supervisor of this flight?

EDIT: Please, stop calling them "terrorists". Many of them are normal people, and I understand them. My friends in Kharkiv (a city to the north of Donetsk) said to me: "We are just fed up of this marasmus. We are completely fed up of "democracy" held only on one square of one city by armed people <note: this was not first case in Ukraine in last 25 years>. We hate all politics of the maidan authorities and we don't want to live in this country". BTW, Kharkiv didn't join to Donetsk separatism, but even here many people were thinking this way a year ago (from words of my friends). And when many active people think this way, taking over the government is not a good idea, because it will lead to separatism (though it didn't first time; they declared their intention of being independet after military forces were sent to kill them by Turchinov. First their claim was just having elections of local governments inside Ukraine).
Of course, you can find real terrorists and bandits among them, because in such situations all bad guys stop hiding, but it doesn't mean, that all of them are terrorists.
Post 19 Jul 2015, 21:44
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fasmnewbie



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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fasmnewbie
Bargest wrote:
One more strange thing - HOW did this plane even appeared on a territory that is in war?! What idiot was a supervisor of this flight?


Aerofloat? Air France, Lufthansa, *** Putin's presidential aircraft ***, Air Asia, Singapore Airlines etc etc. It was clearly a civilian route, with designated flight level, in an **undeclared** war airspace.
Post 20 Jul 2015, 03:06
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fasmnewbie



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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l_inc

only 1 problem: SAM would have left vapor trails all the way up. In many videos recording the MH17 exploded midair upon impact (that is, from multiple angles), none have recorded such smokey trail.
Post 20 Jul 2015, 03:11
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Bargest



Joined: 09 Feb 2012
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Bargest
Quote:
It was clearly a civilian route, with designated flight level

So what all of them were doing there? Any could be at the place of MH17. This time everyone knew two things:
1) Donetsk had wearpons to fire aircrafts (and regularly made this);
2) Ukrainian army was awaiting for full-scaled Russian invasion (well, they were, and are, shouting about it every day till nowadays; still waiting and waiting like it was their main goal from the very beginning...) and were ready to fire any plane suspected to be Russian war plane or transport.
It's obvious, that any flight over this area is in danger. I don't say, that man who shot boeing is innocent, but he is not the only causer. Negligence of aerocompanies is another important reason. Their managers just thought: "Aw, it is not called WAR, it is called anti-terrorist operation, so I won't spend money for changing routes, everything will be ok. And if not, nobody can accuse me, because war was not declared".
Quote:
*** Putin's presidential aircraft ***

About Putin's plane - I've heard this version, that the plane was destroyed by Ukrainian air forces, but real target was Putin's plane. But I don't think it is true: first reference to it was made by "Interfaks", which is known for posting bullshit (a year ago while reading them I've found several their articles that can be refuted by 5 minutes of googling). They said that know it from "completely anonymous source in RosAviation", which makes impossible to check this version. So I think it's fake, and the president's plane didn't fly there.
Post 20 Jul 2015, 09:08
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fasmnewbie



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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fasmnewbie
Bargest wrote:
Quote:
It was clearly a civilian route, with designated flight level

So what all of them were doing there? Any could be at the place of MH17. This time everyone knew two things:
1) Donetsk had wearpons to fire aircrafts (and regularly made this);
2) Ukrainian army was awaiting for full-scaled Russian invasion (well, they were, and are, shouting about it every day till nowadays; still waiting and waiting like it was their main goal from the very beginning...) and were ready to fire any plane suspected to be Russian war plane or transport.
It's obvious, that any flight over this area is in danger. I don't say, that man who shot boeing is innocent, but he is not the only causer. Negligence of aerocompanies is another important reason. Their managers just thought: "Aw, it is not called WAR, it is called anti-terrorist operation, so I won't spend money for changing routes, everything will be ok. And if not, nobody can accuse me, because war was not declared".
Quote:
*** Putin's presidential aircraft ***

About Putin's plane - I've heard this version, that the plane was destroyed by Ukrainian air forces, but real target was Putin's plane. But I don't think it is true: first reference to it was made by "Interfaks", which is known for posting bullshit (a year ago while reading them I've found several their articles that can be refuted by 5 minutes of googling). They said that know it from "completely anonymous source in RosAviation", which makes impossible to check this version. So I think it's fake, and the president's plane didn't fly there.


Your lies cannot justify the massacre of innocent civilians who were not even involved in your wars doesnt matter how hard you are trying to spin the facts.

1. Russia's militaries involvement in Donetsk is against the international laws in the first place. So that alone put Russia in direct responsibility of any civilian casualties and war crimes on foreign land.

2. Russia's and the russian-speaking terrorists in Donetsk should bear full responsibility of MH17 due to their failure to notify the international aviation of the intention to use SAM or any airborne threats against the civil aircrafts. Remember the terrorists in Donetsk and the Russian military DENIED having such anti-aircraft capabilities. Does it mean your terrorists are liars too?

3. Why dont your people migrate to Russia so that real Ukranians can live in peace on their own land? Do you love your terrorists that much that it is ok for you to massacre other unrelated people just for the sake of Russian's GREED?
Post 20 Jul 2015, 14:46
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Bargest



Joined: 09 Feb 2012
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Bargest
How agressive you are. "Lies", "terrorists" and so on. You are completely processed by propaganda, there's nothing to speak if you start blaming me in something that didn't do from 2-nd message. I said no lie, I didn't spin any facts, I didn't even said that boeing was not shot by Donetsk forces. I just said, that aerocompanies are innocent TOO. But listen to yourself - you start blaming me in all this.
About innocent civilians that were killed - I don't argue that it's a big tragedy. But don't you think, that killing 10000 people in donetsk just because they don't want to agree that nazis from UPA are heroes of WW2 is a great tragedy too? Or people, living in Donetsk, are less people, than others on board of a plane?

First who sent army to kill Donetsk people was Turchinov. He has full responsibility of every man and woman killed here. Nobody tried to separate from Ukraine untill this idiotic idea of Turchinov - there were just small analogs of maidan in Donetsk and Lughansk with opposite slogans.
Quote:
1. Russia's militaries involvement in Donetsk is against the international laws in the first place. So that alone put Russia in direct responsibility of any civilian casualties and war crimes on foreign land.

Do you want me to enumerate some of countries, where, for example, the US is directly responsible in killing thousands of people? I've gave here a link to wiki-article about US destroying Iran civilian plane. It's OK? Nobody acts about it. Russia started playing the same dirty game as other countries, because NATO military is directly on borders of Russia. Some leaders made a simple world order: you are a gangster or a vicrim. US and europe are gangsters, who killed hundreds thousands people all over the world. Russia has joined this bad company. USA in Iraq, Sirya, Libya, Yugoslavia and other countries have shown fate of victims. Unfortunately, Ukraine became a new one when european countries and US recognized norms of taking over the government with force.
No country in the world tries to help Ukraine today. US tries to create N+1-th military base here and own gas pipeline. EU gives millions of credits that stay in pockets of Ukrainian polititians to take back these money with high percentage from normal Ukrainians. Russia tries to prevent creation of one more military base and save gas pipeline to trade with EU. Only Ukrainians can do something to their country, but it's definitely not jumping in sqare and drawing swastika on their helmets (look at battalion "Azov").
Quote:
2. Russia's and the russian-speaking terrorists in Donetsk should bear full responsibility of MH17 due to their failure to notify the international aviation

Look the same link about Iran airlines above. It's awful, but nothing will guarantee safety of people in conflict area. Nobody is safe when he flies near war zone, and from this point of veiw I state that managers of Malazyan Air COULD EASILY PREVENT this tragedy, but they decided not to do it.
Quote:
3. Why dont your people migrate to Russia so that real Ukranians can live in peace on their own land?

Huh? If a family lived here for all their lifes, they are real Ukrainians of Donetsk and Lughansk. You think they must leave a place where they lived all their life just because of a thousand of people jumping in Kiev square and shouting "Bandera and Shukhevich <nazi military criminals> are heroes of Ukraine!!"?? Don't you think that people shouting stupid slogans, capturing capital, should go away, but not native livers of Donetsk?

This stupid war on the east of Ukraine was started NOT by Russia. It was started by people that supported bandits taking over the government. I understand that today Russia helps DNR/LNR with some kinds of military techniques, as well as NATO supplies Ukrainian army with wearponry and military instructors. What is your solution? Russia should stop helping and say that "Ok, bandits in Kiev were right in 2014"? In this case you'll see 10k more dead bodies on the east of Ukraine, and after the next presidential election the whole situation will happen again (+20k deaths). This is what you suggest? Kill 30k more people becaue "Russia is bad"? In this case - congrats, take a cookie from Nuland.
The solution was easy. The constitution reform, developing now in Kiev, had to be offered to Donetsk a year ago instead of tanks and bombers. But now it will not help: do you want to live near a man who killed all your neighbours?


Last edited by Bargest on 20 Jul 2015, 15:58; edited 1 time in total
Post 20 Jul 2015, 15:51
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PeExecutable



Joined: 26 Jun 2015
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PeExecutable
There is a big willingness to make conclusions and a smaller willingness to research.

When an assembly programmer spends 4 weeks studying assembly and then arrives at an assembly forum and claims to make conclusions about assembly, we can be sure that he is not sure about anything at all.

Don't even think that you are capable of handling that situation, you're not. You don't have the life experience nor the knowledge.
Post 20 Jul 2015, 15:55
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l_inc



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 881
l_inc
Bargest
Quote:
Don't say "nonsence" when you talk about ext. politics.

You provided 2 links to support this, but both links actually disprove your position: the first one was an accident, the second one was never approved and the author of the plan was fired.
Quote:
You can find lots of idiots in DNR/LNR, and in Ukraine too. Any of them could fire a civilian plane.

I don't believe that could be done on purpose, no matter by whom.
Quote:
DNR/LNR army had more "chances" to do it, but confusing Boeing at 10km height with a ukrainian bomber sounds strange.

That's true. But the separatists reported to have shot this plane as they thought, not the one they are talking about on the video from the first post. The Su-25 mentioned on the video was not shot down that day to my knowledge.
Quote:
One more strange thing - HOW did this plane even appeared on a territory that is in war?!

That's not too surprising considering that the separatists did not have SAMs able to shot that height before. For that reason the routes above 9km were considered safe. I must agree however that the Ukrainian services could have foreseen that Russia would supply this kind of SAMs as well.
Quote:
Please, stop calling them "terrorists".

Just because you're asking, but not because I think they aren't. Let's just say that I have a completely different view on the situation. Your government has gained a huge amount of distrust and being exposed to their propaganda you won't be able to change my opinion. In fact I deeply believe that Russian propaganda is the main cause for the whole situation in the East of Ukraine.

Who could change my opinion are European investigation groups and committees, but as of now their findings only support it.

fasmnewbie
Quote:
only 1 problem: SAM would have left vapor trails all the way up. In many videos recording the MH17 exploded midair upon impact (that is, from multiple angles), none have recorded such smokey trail

It's not surprising at all considering how good the conditions should be to be able to capture the trail:
1) Depending on the wind conditions and humidity the trail would completely disappear within tens of seconds to few minutes. It was somewhat windy (6-7 m/s according to the preliminary report released by the Dutch Safety Board), so I'd take 1 minute as an estimation. The time it took for the missile to hit Boeing was about 15-20 seconds and then at least 40 seconds (probably more: drag forces aren't easy to account) for the remains of the plane to reach the ground. So the video should start early enough. My guess would be at least 30 seconds before the plane hit the ground.

2) The video should capture from a close distance the location of the missile launch, not the location of the crash or grounded remains.

3) There should be clear background to see the trail.

I don't know what "many videos" you are talking about, but if they satisfy the conditions and cover 360° of a clear horizon, then, please, support your argument with links to those "many videos".

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Post 20 Jul 2015, 16:57
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Bargest



Joined: 09 Feb 2012
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Bargest
Quote:
You provided 2 links to support this, but both links actually disprove your position: the first one was an accident, the second one was never approved and the author of the plan was fired.

I can't agree.
First one - US didn't even oficially apologised for this (according to the article). Why? It's so hard for them? Or they've done it intentionally because it was IRAN plane? But I don't state, it's just a hint.
Second one - how did this terrible plan even appeared? How did it's authors entered the government, but not prison? Can you guarantee, that there are no similar plans, that are accepted and implemented now?
Quote:
In fact I deeply believe that Russian propaganda is the main cause for the whole situation in the East of Ukraine.

I agree except one point: the word "Russian" and "East" should be deleted from this sentence. Cause of the whole situation in Ukraine (not only Eastern) is propaganda (not only Russian, but including Russian). Every country invested its mite on this.
It's true that there is very aggressive propaganda in Russia. But not only in Russia. Most countries (all european countries, US, Canada, China) have very powerful propaganda too. Sometimes I read articles on different sites to analyze moods in the world.
Till 2011 main vector of Russian propaganda was on destruction of our country within Ukrainian scenario. I know how it works, I was under this shit too. But in 2011 we managed not to become such a war hell like Ukraine. Now kremlin obtained most of TV resources and the vector extremely changed. Today words "TV" and "blogs" for me are synonims of "lie".

I really appreciate your ability to argue without blaming in lies and so on. We have information from different sources. In my posts I'm not stating that "DNR is good, Ukraine is bad". And I'm not trying to force all guys here to beleive in my point of view. I share information, because I'm sure in today's situation you should not beleive anyone (including me Smile) about external politics. And I read different opinions and facts here. I'm sure there are no really independent groups or committees that can prove or disprove something, because all of them can be easily closed by government if their results will not satisfy them, and MH-17 investigation will be their last work in all their life: nobody will hire them with good salary after it. So european committees will not change my opinion too. My opinion is the following: "The main goal is not finding and punishing people, but preventing such situations in future. First of all, preventing capturing governments, known to be main catalyst of civil wars for all human history. And the main causers of MH-17 tragedy are world leaders who supported mass law violation in 2014."
Post 20 Jul 2015, 17:26
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fasmnewbie



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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fasmnewbie
Bargest

You must be a special kind of idiot trying so hard to blame others but the russian terrorists.

1. SAM is *** precision **** missile with IFF capsbility. You can still find and destroy the target even if it is located somewhere among other non combatant airliners. it is like a sniper rifle. You could miss but it is impossible to lock on a wrong target.

2. The russian terrorrists denied and LIED (just typical russians) about not having anti-aircraft capability. The 37 airliners TRUSTED your information. Thats why they kept flyibg in the airspace controlled by YOU.

So now should we trust the words coming out from a RUSSIAN now?
Post 21 Jul 2015, 05:06
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Bargest



Joined: 09 Feb 2012
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Bargest
Quote:
SAM is *** precision **** missile with IFF capsbilit ...

Lol.Smile Yeah, we already know about your high edication about wearponry and of course we beleive every your word.
Quote:
The russian terrorrists denied and LIED (just typical russians) about not having anti-aircraft capability.

Lol^2. Nobody said a word about BUKs and others anti-aircraft wearponry before the crash. Also they should know, that there was a theoretical possibility of stealing/recapturing BUKs from Ukrainian army and military bases near Donetsk territory, not only receiving from Russia. It is war! Companies must analyze all possible threats. So there was nothing to trust for companies. And these compaines should know, that Ukrainian army had this capabilities and were ready to war with Russia (so they easily could be near Russian borders seeking the sky with radars). If the companies really wanted their passangers to be save, they could easily change routes. It's not so hard operation. But they care only about their money, not about passangers.

Well, let's talk about propaganda. Talk not to fasmnewbie (it's useless to speak to him), but to everyone here.
First of all, visit some propagandistic resource (e.g. BBC/CNN site) and find smth about Ukraine. Most of the articles have no objectivism at all: roles of "good" and "bad" are previously assigned and never change. Russia is bad, no matter what it does. Ukraine is good, no matter what it does. Putin is mad, Putin is idiot, Russians are stupid monkeys. Porochenko is an angel, all Ukrainians are very happy about taking over the government. If Russa says something, it lies. If Ukraine says smth, it's truth. If saying that Russia lies sounds absurdly in some situation, this situation will be ignored. If Ukraine really lies somewhere, this situation will be ignored. Every time it is possible, DNR/LNR people must be called terrorists. It doesn't matter, that terrorists are men who kill people to make others fear them, but Donetsk people are fighting for their lifes: authors just need to find the most unpleasant word for them. All information must be pre-analyzed by the author and it should contain certain deduction, or people will try to read other sources.

This is typical propogandistic position. Here we can find 2 main rules:
1) Subjectivism. Assiging roles of good and bad just because "I want so" and adjusting facts to this position.
2) Uniqueness. If author says smth, it must be accepted immidiately. If somebody says the opposite view, it must be considered as a lie.
Third thing, popular in propaganda, is fake information. But it is not used so often, because using the 2 easy rules above you can make propaganda from anything: just say what you need with maximum bias via authoritative resource and blame others in lying or ignore them.
One more interesting moment: processed people begin assigning "true" and "false" marks to any infromation they receive basing just on their feeling, which was formed by propaganda. This leads to self-reproducement of this information: everyone is sure, that it's HIS point of view, and starts aggressively forcing this point whenever he has a chance. fasmnewbie have kindly shown this mechanism twice: no facts, no trying to understand other points of view - only blames, crying and a lot of far negative epithets.
Sometimes authors try to hide this misobjectivism. But if you analyze some amount of different articels from one author at nearby themes, you can find them.
I'm not saying it is only in USA and GB. In Russia you can find the same situation with propaganda, just with the opposite point of view.

So what is NOT propaganda? Obviously, it's information, that is free from these 2 rules. No bad or good specifications of sides, no strange deduction, no any blames in lie and nothing is told in style of "either you yourself understand it or you are an idiot". I warn you about it, because propaganda was exactly the thing that almost lead my country to destruction, and which created today's chaos in Ukraine. Propaganda in Ukraine is the only cause of maidan. I talked to my former Kiev friend in autumn 2013, saying, that "Maidan will lead to civil war". He didn't want to listen to me. He began defending positions of maidan, and it turned out he didn't know lots of things about it, proved by photos and videos. After some time he began sending me tons of offensive pictures, though I didn't do anything to him at all and said no unpleasant word about him.

P.S. Sorry, I've moved forum thread from expected holywar about "You killed them!" - "No, it's you!!!" to another more boreing plane and caused butthurt of one guy. I'm stopping this now.


Last edited by Bargest on 21 Jul 2015, 06:30; edited 1 time in total
Post 21 Jul 2015, 06:14
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fasmnewbie



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 553
fasmnewbie
[quote="PeExecutable"]There is a big willingness to make conclusions and a smaller willingness to research.

When an assembly programmer spends 4 weeks studying assembly and then arrives at an assembly forum and claims to make conclusions about assembly, we can be sure that he is not sure about anything at all.

Don't even think that you are capable of handling that situation, you're not. u don't have the life experience nor the knowledge.[/quote] glad to know your English is improving. Good effort comrade!,,

So whats next? Finland?
Post 21 Jul 2015, 06:23
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fasmnewbie



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 553
fasmnewbie
Its funny to see a putins propaganda troll finally looked himself in the mirror and write everthing how to identify a propagandist like HIMSELF. Thanks comrade!

Now lets see it from a different angle --> that some of those you MURDERED were my countrymen!

Now tell me if i am a propagandist or simply an affected person?

Lets hear your next propaganda lines
Post 21 Jul 2015, 07:54
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fasmnewbie



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 553
fasmnewbie
Putin's propaganda troll:
To hell with those on board MH17. They are on the wrong side of the war.
But listen to the sufferings of my russian people in Ukraine. Their lives and cause are more important. We should not be punished for shooting down an airliner full of children because we are the victims here, not the passengers on board.
Post 21 Jul 2015, 08:01
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PeExecutable



Joined: 26 Jun 2015
Posts: 181
PeExecutable
A great injustice has been done. I will spend the rest of my life trying to solve this great injustice, with my expert knowledge about SAM batteries, I can solve it. The combination of paranoia and military knowledge, is a tool that can hardly be matched!
Post 21 Jul 2015, 11:54
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