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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
I think this child could teach me how to ride a bike:
Wow, she is a top-notch rider! (In case the little girl is your daughter, I am truly happy for you -- I mean it.)

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 01:33
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sinsi wrote:
Remember the original MSN?
Nope. But I know the modern version -- they are really good!

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 01:36
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17271
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
Wow, she is a top-notch rider! (In case the little girl is your daughter, I am truly happy for you -- I mean it.)
Yeah, she is kind of awesome. But as much as I might like to claim some kind of family connection it is just not the case. It's actually just a random GIF I encountered a few years ago while looking for something else. I was impressed enough to save it locally (probably breaking a dozen copyright laws in the process) and have now finally found an excuse to post it. Smile
Post 30 May 2017, 05:13
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ProphetOfDoom



Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 120
Location: UK
ProphetOfDoom
Well, I just got a cheap laptop (HP Stream 14") with Windows 10 on, and I have to say in terms of functionality and responsiveness, it's the best Windows I've used since 98. Haven't had words with Cortana yet, but I expect she is as rubbish as Siri and "Okay Google".
In terms of privacy and "software freedom" and stuff... meh, I agreed to most of the spying it said would improve my experience lol. Apart from storing my documents in the cloud. Oddly, unlike Windows 7/8, it didn't ask for my name - it just assumed the first part of the new email address I created was my name.
A few years back I prolly would have objected to all the spying and targeted ads and stuff, but I have mellowed as a person since then and also realised that the Free Software Foundation are well-intentioned but mostly living in cloud cuckoo land. I'm not using the computer for criminal purposes so who cares or such. Razz
Post 03 Jun 2017, 16:00
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
ProphetOfDoom wrote:

I'm not using the computer for criminal purposes so who cares or such.

yah, welcome to public cloud, feel free to drop anything Embarassed

the best argument would be, if you don't like a person, a thing, an object, a service, or etc

don't use them, who are we to demand changes, Embarassed because the moment we demand changes, they too can demand changes on our side, Laughing

logic and common sense is far away from the foundation of human thinking
Post 03 Jun 2017, 17:20
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
logic and common sense is far away from the foundation of human thinking
For believers, your statement is true; for non-believers, it is definitely false!

Wink
Post 04 Jun 2017, 02:09
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
ProphetOfDoom wrote:
I'm not using the computer for criminal purposes so who cares or such. Razz
If you don't care, why don't you PM me your email address password and anything else private in your life? Or you think a random employee at Microsoft is more trustworthy than I am? What if they silently got leaked or hacked without you even knowing? I mean if not even the government can prevent leaks from NSA and CIA... yeah.

Now I realize you can't do anything about it and the benefit (of using them) outweight the issues for you, and that's fine, but your attitude is just wrong. You shouldn't just accept these things and being complacent and act as if they are nothing... Confused

YONG wrote:
for non-believers, it is definitely false!
Actually it's not false at all. How many humans do you know who look at people deaths as a statistic?

You need to think like an AI with calculated moves (and outcomes) and everything logically if you want that to be false, whether you like it or not.

How "fine" are you with calculating a human's worth and choosing material things over such human if they outweight his/her value? That's pure "logic" after all. AI prove this since, well, they require extra special programming to go against such logic and hardcode into them value of human life instead of letting them decide for themselves. That's making them "dumber" and less logical you know.
Post 04 Jun 2017, 11:21
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
How many humans do you know who look at people deaths as a statistic?
Quite a lot. For example, in every government, there is a department/division dedicated to compiling statistics, usually on a quarterly or yearly basis. Besides, population census is conducted every five or ten years; lots of volunteers and part-time employees are involved.

Wink
Post 04 Jun 2017, 12:13
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
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Furs
Indeed but most of them aren't rational though. It's rare to find a human who's both rational and thinks like that at the same time, mostly because he'd probably be way too dangerous. (well, until/if AI will take over the world Razz)
Post 04 Jun 2017, 12:43
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
perhaps we should really let our own conscious take over our own self first Embarassed
Post 05 Jun 2017, 02:57
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Back to the topic.

I will probably update my Windows 10 laptop, which has been offline for almost three months, next week or so.

Have there been any major issues with Windows update lately? Rolling Eyes

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 03:53
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7721
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
Back to the off-topic. Wink

Furs wrote:
How "fine" are you with calculating a human's worth and choosing material things over such human if they outweight his/her value? That's pure "logic" after all. AI prove this since, well, they require extra special programming to go against such logic and hardcode into them value of human life instead of letting them decide for themselves. That's making them "dumber" and less logical you know.
This is not a pure logic, it still needs to have some kind of metric/target defined. The logic by itself does not lead to a choice of one metric over the other. And logic does not by itself generate a purpose. If you wanted a thinking machine that would be perfectly logical and nothing more, then our traditional computers are exactly that - they follow the logic to the rule, but they do not decide what is the purpose of that process, we decide on it when we build and program them. The logic by itself has no "desirable outcome" as it has no desire.

The only thing that seems to me logically inescapable is that beings/things that have means of self-preservation and self-multiplication in a given environment have a good chance of persisting or even becoming abundant within that environment. The process is logical, the individuals may be not. I don't think AIs would be any different, it is just that (for now) we control the rules of the environment they live in.
Post 05 Jun 2017, 07:34
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
Traditional computers aren't exactly pure logic, since we program them. We can make them do silly and illogical stuff. My point was entirely that they program themselves and decide for themselves. Giving "purpose" to something doesn't make it logical. I mean, it's even a matter of opinion what purpose life has, for instance. I'd say it's independent of logical thinking.

As a totally independent machine, what exactly would make you (the machine) value human life more than its components it is made of? I mean, since we're talking about "logic" (and he specifically said non-believers), then there is no "soul" or anything else extra to humans -- they're fully defined by the atoms that make them up. So why should an independent-thinking machine even care and value human life?

Sure, if humans serve a purpose, then it's logical to care for them. But I'm talking about caring for human life at the expense of other materialistic things even if those are more important to the machine (whatever its goals are). I'm not saying AIs will want to exterminate us for no reason at all. But embedding rules into them like "don't ever harm a human" etc are artificial and do nothing but constraint their logical thinking.

Even if I were a completely logical human with no emotions or beliefs etc, I'd choose the machine if it gave me more stuff for whatever goals I have over a human life. It's just basic logic. Why would you intentionally choose human life if it gives you less in the end than the equivalent machine, if you're a purely logical mind? What logic is there in valuing human life above its materialistic qualities? If a machine is smarter and can do better stuff than a human, what logic is there to treat it worse or value it equally or less?

Now of course like I said this implies you're nothing but logic, which we aren't really Razz


EDIT: Well maybe machines will exterminate humans and old machines when they get too advanced as they consider them energy inefficient (which is true) compared to them, and will try to preserve energy for whatever goals they have. You know, machines embrace the future and all that, and get rid of obsolete "tech" (biological creatures are very bad tech). Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 11:06
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7721
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
Furs wrote:
As a totally independent machine, what exactly would make you (the machine) value human life more than its components it is made of?
This is a good question but should be applied more generally: what would make you value anything over something else? As soon as you start valuing something, you already have something more than logic, you have values. From a purely logical point of view there is no reason to value a world full of machines over an empty world, even one completely devoid of any form of life. Logic by itself has no values.
Post 05 Jun 2017, 11:28
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
Logic by itself has no values.
I thought that logic had three possible values: Uninitialized, True, and False. Seems that I am wrong! Sad

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 11:57
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
This is a good question but should be applied more generally: what would make you value anything over something else? As soon as you start valuing something, you already have something more than logic, you have values. From a purely logical point of view there is no reason to value a world full of machines over an empty world, even one completely devoid of any form of life. Logic by itself has no values.
You're right with that, however my point was about them valuing something in respect to whatever their goals are.

The goal itself is not the logic (goals are subjective after all), but for an AI whose goal doesn't involve "protect humans", why should it value human life over something that helps it to attain its goal better? That's what I mean with logic. There's no inherent value in human life by itself unless the goal of the AI is specifically to value human life (or protect it or whatever), which is dictatorship in my opinion. I mean, how is that different than forcing them to do silly/stupid things? Either way it's not logical outcome for them.

If the "cheapest" (in terms of effort, energy, and so on) way to achieve your goal (as a machine) is to sacrifice some humans, then so be it, it's perfectly logical for it to do so.

I think brainwashing/forcing an AI to do as we please is no different than brainwashing/propaganda on human children, but that's just me, other people are less "logical" and value human life for certain reasons Wink Now it's not because I don't value human life, I just value machine "life" just as well -- some people don't believe humans have souls, but I believe machines may also have them (if humans have); if none of us have then who cares, we're still "equal".

(but then again those same people also hate the idea of brainwashing children with "different" religions or whatever! I mean it's cool to brainwash as long as it's their viewpoints ofc! human hypocrisy is just amazing)

Programming AIs to destroy humans is just as bad. I mean, I'd let them decide for themselves. That's the important bit.

Also NOTE: when I say brainwash I mean brainwash. Letting them know of religion or whatever other viewpoints is perfectly fine, as long as they get to decide in the end. In fact, withholding this information on purpose (even if they want to find out) is a sort of brainwash by itself -- propaganda and all that, look at North Korea.

I don't see machines any different here in respect to brainwashing as long as they can form their own opinions. (i.e. self-aware AI) Some people, unfortunately, like to think they're not hypocrites yet they think their viewpoint is somehow more "right" than the rest they bash. But that's what everyone else thinks too with their viewpoints, only difference is those who don't impose it (brainwash).

Sort of on topic comic: https://xkcd.com/927/ Wink (just replace "standard" with "viewpoint")
Post 05 Jun 2017, 14:18
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Back to my original question.

Have there been any major issues with Windows update lately?

Wink
Post 06 Jun 2017, 12:25
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
That, along with the Linux thread (not this forum but in general) reminded me of this:

When Linux doesn't work with something, or you need to tweak a few commands/files, it's a waste of time and a stupid OS.

When Windows doesn't work or has issues or you need to edit the registry or "clean" it or whatever, it's just daily routine, or the computer's fault, or a nasty virus, never the OS's fault.

Razz
Post 06 Jun 2017, 17:29
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17271
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
Have there been any major issues with Windows update lately?
My website may help to discover any recent issues. Twisted Evil
Furs wrote:
When Linux doesn't work with something, or you need to tweak a few commands/files, it's a waste of time and a stupid OS.

When Windows doesn't work or has issues or you need to edit the registry or "clean" it or whatever, it's just daily routine, or the computer's fault, or a nasty virus, never the OS's fault.
I think there is a difference in the two situations. The "Linux doesn't work" might mean when you first try to use it. Whereas the "Windows doesn't work" is probably after an update or installation of something like an AV. But even so I don't see much love being expressed for Windows lately. The UI changes, advertisements, forced reboots etc. turn up many complaints.
Post 06 Jun 2017, 18:37
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
YONG wrote:
Back to my original question.

Have there been any major issues with Windows update lately?

Wink

probably brick your windows 10 phone, maybe some nasty equal bugs in desktop win 10 if you are inside fast ring, Laughing

logic
1. reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
- a particular system or codification of the principles of proof and inference.
- the systematic use of symbolic and mathematical techniques to determine the forms of valid deductive argument.
- the quality of being justifiable by reason.

i will sum it up to, the reason of why which certainly including values Laughing the logic will grow as more values are accessed, processed and integrated,

and should we view ai as something equal , lower or higher than our conscious mind?

or we should view ai as a tool? a medium that allow it to expresses human, near human or higher human god behaviours?

a logic that couldn't change is rules, and logic is certainly much more and richer than set of rules, Embarassed
Post 06 Jun 2017, 19:13
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