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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Off the scale in the third direction
nyrtzi
TmX wrote:

Then I realized I don't need to know everything in detail about C++.

As long as I get the work done then I'm fine with C++.
I'm not interested in becoming C++ guru like Andrei Alexandrescu
or Herb Sutter, anyway.
Smile


Until you have to interface with or maintain code written by some smartypants C++ programmer who makes it everyone's business to understand and debug code with all those details and features in it.
Post 28 Apr 2014, 09:34
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7718
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
system error wrote:
Now here comes F#, as if we are running out of sane alphabets already. But thank god Tomasz didn't use the 'b' (flat) symbol or else we all now will have to use the extended/wide char to search 'b Assembler' via google.
Hey, this is actually a great idea for a new fasm's logo. Cool
Post 28 Apr 2014, 11:54
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Off the scale in the third direction
nyrtzi
nyrtzi wrote:
Until you have to interface with or maintain code written by some smartypants C++ programmer who makes it everyone's business to understand and debug code with all those details and features in it.


I somehow get the feeling that any language that is too forgiving in terms of the complexity you can put into how you've written your code is going to be a maintenance nightmare.

Luckily C++ code is usually pretty sane. The biggest problem I usually have is that of trying to understand the error messages g++ spits out about the generic classes in the standard library. I've heard that clang does it better with actually readable error messages?

But what about F#, Scala and Clojure code where in which people try to use LINQ, monads and everything else they possibly can throw in there just to prove that they can "simplify" things by using as complex approaches and concepts as "everyone else" and trying to hype everyone up about the new languages they use in order to prove that they are better than old languages?

I think these new languages are less about solving actual software problems and more about solving the problem of software companies not having enough problems that other companies can sell "solutions" for.
Post 28 Apr 2014, 12:21
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sid123



Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Posts: 340
Location: Asia, Singapore
sid123
Well F# is a weird language (syntax), however I like it because some of the cases where I use the GPU I write in f# it's actually easier to write gpu code in f# . Smile
Post 28 Apr 2014, 12:29
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Off the scale in the third direction
nyrtzi
I'd say that if you want a language to be popular you need to include all the relevant batteries, easy to use, easy to understand and comprehensive documentation and make it easy to both get started and to keep on going after that. Good tools are a plus too I guess even though I myself use vim rather than an IDE.
Post 28 Apr 2014, 12:32
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Off the scale in the third direction
nyrtzi
sid123 wrote:
Well F# is a weird language (syntax), however I like it because some of the cases where I use the GPU I write in f# it's actually easier to write gpu code in f# . Smile


Have you tried OCaml? I remember reading somewhere that F# is "based on" it. I'm more into referentially transparent code than actual functional programming though.
Post 28 Apr 2014, 12:39
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JohnFound



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 3500
Location: Bulgaria
JohnFound
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
system error wrote:
Now here comes F#, as if we are running out of sane alphabets already. But thank god Tomasz didn't use the 'b' (flat) symbol or else we all now will have to use the extended/wide char to search 'b Assembler' via google.
Hey, this is actually a great idea for a new fasm's logo. Cool


Is it actually? FlatAssembler is mature product and change of the image is very hard IMHO. Also, the symbol "flat" () remembers "b" too much. So, it will look like "b asm".

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Post 28 Apr 2014, 14:36
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TmX



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
TmX
nyrtzi wrote:

Until you have to interface with or maintain code written by some smartypants C++ programmer who makes it everyone's business to understand and debug code with all those details and features in it.


Fortunately, we use C++ only to write internal tools, and most of them are not that complex.
Can be handled by 1 or 2 developers Smile

nyrtzi wrote:

But what about F#, Scala and Clojure code where in which people try to use LINQ, monads and everything else they possibly can throw in there just to prove that they can "simplify" things by using as complex approaches and concepts as "everyone else" and trying to hype everyone up about the new languages they use in order to prove that they are better than old languages?

I think these new languages are less about solving actual software problems and more about solving the problem of software companies not having enough problems that other companies can sell "solutions" for.


I read somewhere (can't remember the exact source) that functional programming essentially is a small, elegant concept.
Too bad academic concepts overcomplicate it.
On the other hand, it's pretty easy to see that functional programming is in the rise.
As a Java developer, I'm pretty much interested in investigating Scala/Clojure to write web apps. Time will tell whether this is
a pleasant experience or not Smile
Post 28 Apr 2014, 16:13
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gens



Joined: 18 Feb 2013
Posts: 161
gens
i like only asm and basic (C aint that bad)
less semantics to remember
Post 28 Apr 2014, 18:01
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4237
Location: 2018
edfed
anybody can write programs, not everybody can write prograéms that does exactlly what it is intended to do, and few are able to code huge programs (they are called developpers), as it is a real job, it needs a real skill set to practice really.

hll, in my opinion, and with my first 2 years of practice (for food) have the advantage vs assembly, they are used for real in any IT company. then, it is more easy to speak about design principles when speaking about hll than asm.

from hll, people frequentlly think asm code needs libc to work.

with c and fasm forum, people thinks you need to know the cpu internals to code something for a business....

not at all, you just need to know english (in order to remember and understand the long sentensedLabelsAllOverTheCode

but this is just a common practice, applicable to asm.

practicing a hll, in my opinion, and with my 2 year feedback, is a benefit to understand that when you need a lot of things to do ugly stuff, you should do a lot of thing, even in asm.

then, now, i am not afraid of all the design ideas i had in my early ages in asm. now, i can think i need many more code and data than before, just to do less.

and it is not a problem now cause i don't care more about the machines now, i prefer nature and people now Smile...

that doesn't discourage me to code my os (that finally got started) Smile
Post 28 Apr 2014, 19:28
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 192
Location: Off the scale in the third direction
nyrtzi
TmX wrote:

I read somewhere (can't remember the exact source) that functional programming essentially is a small, elegant concept.
Too bad academic concepts overcomplicate it.


Too simple actually which is why pure functional programming is augmented with all kinds of ugly and complicated stuff to make it usable in practise.

TmX wrote:

On the other hand, it's pretty easy to see that functional programming is in the rise.


And how many decades did it take for us to get to this situation?

TmX wrote:

As a Java developer, I'm pretty much interested in investigating Scala/Clojure to write web apps. Time will tell whether this is
a pleasant experience or not Smile


If you ever have the time I recommend looking at the EBNF description Scala's syntax. That alone was enough to convince me that there is simply too much syntax in that language.
Post 28 Apr 2014, 20:47
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Fixit



Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 161
Fixit
As far as Linux is concerned, I think assembly is non-existent.

I have used 10 + Linux distros, with NO progress in writing a single program, either console or GUI.

I can not even compile a GUI C or C++ program to work.

Maybe they could tell me how, but they would have to snuff me out. Smile

Take care,
Andy
Post 29 Apr 2014, 02:29
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system error



Joined: 01 Sep 2013
Posts: 671
system error
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
system error wrote:
Now here comes F#, as if we are running out of sane alphabets already. But thank god Tomasz didn't use the 'b' (flat) symbol or else we all now will have to use the extended/wide char to search 'b Assembler' via google.
Hey, this is actually a great idea for a new fasm's logo. Cool
hmmm.. new FASM "logo"? You must be on a big and/or new project that requires a "logo". Whatever that is, I wish you good luck and you have my support. (but not that "b" flat logo. It's ugly)
Post 11 May 2014, 04:44
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