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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
maybe you know something,
and maybe you wish to help me understand these thing.

i been confused with gravity and sound,

if light, we got smallest unit known as photons,

if in audio, they are know as wave,

so, does those audio wave exists physically or they are just "energy" (ability to move from point a to b), passing through atom (the smallest unit of something physical)

so how about gravity, is it something like audio wave? or they exists in some real known physical unit?

like wave we saw in sea, beach, waterpark, they exists in energy form, afaik,
so when the energy moves, wave formed,

if energy could move in wave form, and physical form, i was thinking maybe gravity is wave formed energy.

then how about magnet,
2 magnet attracted because of energy wave or the magnet field is something physical with atom inside?

i know i am stupid, so, please bear with me and thanks for helps.
Post 14 Mar 2014, 17:37
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
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ManOfSteel
There are many theories, but to keep it "simple", these are considered one form of fundamental force or another.

sleepsleep wrote:
so how about gravity, is it something like audio wave? or they exists in some real known physical unit?

Gravitation is one of the 4 fundamental forces and is supposedly mediated by the graviton elementary particle.
Post 14 Mar 2014, 20:27
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
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neville
First of all you should accept "to all intents and purposes" that the Universe is infinite.

That means it is infinite in "both directions": micro-infinite and macro-infinite if you like
i.e. there is no limit to how small anything can be, and no limit to how large.

(In fact this is almost certainly incorrect, but it is still a reasonable assumption which I will attempt to justify below...)

My Scale Theory:
Then you accept that there is no absolute scale, but a series of relative scales.
Physics might indicate these relative scales have a constant ratio of about 23 orders of magnitude.

Hence what we know at an "atom" is about 23 orders of magnitude smaller than what we know as a "solar system"
but otherwise these things are the same.

Now lets say we exist at Scale 0 (an arbitrary reference )

So life existing on (for example) an electron orbiting a neon nucleus exists at Scale -1.
And life existing in a space in which our solar system appears to be (for example) a neon (or fluorine) atom exists at Scale 1.

Ok so now you can see:

1. there is no "smallest unit". I believe photons are Scale -1 sub-atomic particles, possibly Scale -1 electrons. If so their mass would be well under 10^-50 kg.

2. sound waves are easy. They are caused by the movement of Scale 0 matter, like large numbers of air or water molecules. The wave energy is stored in reciprocating movements of the molecules while they propagate in any direction.
The reciprocating movement can be transverse (perpendicular to the direction of travel) or longitudinal (in the same direction).
A transverse wave can easily be seen by plucking a tight string. A longitudinal wave can be seen in a "slinky" spring.

3. electro-magnetism and gravity are the same things, but just manifested at different Scales.

4. Gravity waves are caused by the movement of "graviton" particles, which are probably at Scale -2

5. Einstein's theory explaining gravity as the "curvature of space-time" is fanciful nonsense!

6. The speed of light is not an inherent physical speed limit. Yes, Einstein is wrong again! All particles smaller than photons, including gravitons, can travel MUCH faster than light!

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Post 14 Mar 2014, 21:05
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
it seems like neville or whoever who have been subject te "nevilles" mind reading device or comptuer reading device wished to become a slave of someone else.


if a person just invents things and throws it out there.. then what is responsibility in it? people are realy backward.


so basicallly because human and brain interact with electricity and magnetism (MRI)

then there is possibility of some sort of modification and since not one is protected from such biological or electromagnetic covert methods.. wich is somewhat simple to protect (just have to build underground homes for people, with very low overprice [10 megajoules consumed for a person]

or just build protective cars. then have to filter air. or use innenr cycle of some sort.
Post 15 Mar 2014, 07:00
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
humans are not just creatures in current societies. look at the most simple model: Bullies. Then these personalities go on in different manifestations later.


so one cannot reason that humans are just.

It willl happen by force. i have tryed to offer the way to resolve all this wich recquires no violence (and the life is with violence), and it was rejected even more so, other ways were repurposed for selfish reasons.. with insufficient science or protection of children behind it (all exposed to radio waves and covert biological crap, hopefully noone will use it against them, but if so one would decide i will offer great punishment for it would i wind up to be the ruler of heavens and purgatory later on if not then most possibly a different person would do similar).
Post 15 Mar 2014, 07:05
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
thanks for info,
so hypothetical graviton is something smaller than photon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction
Quote:
Gravitation is by far the weakest of the four interactions. The weakness of gravity can easily be demonstrated by suspending a pin using a simple magnet (such as a refrigerator magnet). The magnet is able to hold the pin against the gravitational pull of the entire Earth.

i actually can't agree with the idea, using pin against gravitational pull to conclude gravity strength.

neville wrote:

First of all you should accept "to all intents and purposes" that the Universe is infinite.

i frankly find it hard to imagine infinite universe.

i like your scale theory,
so far, i still don't understand how they could bind time with how fast light could travel in a year, something doesn't make sense there, then they use it interchangeably, convert time to speed, then speed to time.

they said nothing could travel faster than light, i guess that is before they discover smaller than photon stuffs.

i got no idea also regarding space, then how they bind space with time, i really need to study more.
Post 15 Mar 2014, 17:09
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
matefkr, thanks for your words, and sentences, but .... are they out of the topic we are discussing now?
Post 15 Mar 2014, 17:11
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Xorpd!



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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Xorpd!
Quantization of sound waves is much cleaner inside a crystal, where the quanta are called phonons. Look at your undergraduate quantum mechanics text to see how electromagnetic waves are quantized and try to apply that to other waves. Schroedinger showed how to write a wave equation for any obeject we might consider to be a particle. Light is placed just right on the energy scale that wavelike properties (interference and diffraction) and particle-like properties (photoelectric effect) can be readily observed.
It's kind of hard to detect gravitons directly because gravitational interactions are so wimpy (about 1.0e-40 the strength of EM or strong interactions) and it's hard to detect gravitational waves, although sensitive detectors are around and if a supernova blew up close enough it may be detected. Certainly SN1987A set off neutrino detectors, but wasn't close enough for gravitational wave detection.
Magnets need not attract or repel: since they are at least magnetic dipoles (although you can get [and I have] quadrupole magnets) the forces between them can be in any direction relative to the displacement vector connecting the two. It's not expensive to get the magnets you need to have a levitating permanaent magnet. See YouTube for examples.
Post 15 Mar 2014, 18:41
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
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neville
sleepsleep wrote:
so far, i still don't understand how they could bind time with how fast light could travel in a year, something doesn't make sense there, then they use it interchangeably, convert time to speed, then speed to time.
"how fast light could travel in a year" doesn't make sense to me either. I assume you mean "how far light could travel in a year" which is a simple concept if light is assumed to always travel at a constant speed.
So the distance is speed x time which becomes proportional to time. Is this what you mean? A "light-year" then becomes a measure of distance, how far light travels in a year (which by astronomical standards is quite a small distance and is about 300000 x 3600 x 24 x 365 km = 9460800000000 km if my calculation is correct)
So that converts between time and distance for constant speed, but you also ask about converting between time and speed. That can be done for a varying speed over a constant distance but I'm not sure if that's what you mean?
sleepsleep wrote:
i got no idea also regarding space, then how they bind space with time, i really need to study more.
In my Scale Theory, space and absolute time are linked by the same Scale factor. At all scales if we take a "year" to be the time our planet (electron) takes to orbit our sun (atomic nucleus) then the absolute year at Scale -1 is 10^23 times shorter than our year at Scale 0. Similarly if you existed in scale +1, your life would be 10^23 times longer, so you would live for maybe 80x10^23 Scale 0 years!!
But at each Scale our lives and actual existence would seem to be very similar!

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Post 15 Mar 2014, 21:23
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matefkr



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matefkr
no. discussing the reason for a discussion is not out of topic. it may have convinced neville or not.
Post 16 Mar 2014, 01:26
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neville



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neville
matefkr wrote:
no. discussing the reason for a discussion is not out of topic. it may have convinced neville or not.
I can't be convinced because I don't understand your meaning. Are you actually objecting to "throwing ideas" around, for some reason?

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 02:28
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
neville wrote:

I assume you mean "how far light could travel in a year"

yah, sorry,
i guess i don't know what i am talking about,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation
i am more confusing with how time dilation works,
Quote:
An accurate clock at rest with respect to one observer may be measured to tick at a different rate when compared to a second observer's own equally accurate clocks. This effect arises neither from technical aspects of the clocks nor from the fact that signals need time to propagate, but from the nature of spacetime itself.


all these seemed connected, coz they refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime spacetime then.

i don't buy time dilation because of spacetime or ...

time doesn't exists,
the dilation might due to gravity effects on moving object, atom or etc -scale matter. or maybe the matter itself will exhibit such behaviour when moving in certain speed.
ah, earth is moving in great speed too,

maybe i am insane, but i think people who really believe time exists as something of matter or -scale matter or etc, isn't it time is only a concept to describe changes?
Post 16 Mar 2014, 04:55
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neville



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neville
sleepsleep wrote:
maybe i am insane, but i think people who really believe time exists as something of matter or -scale matter or etc, isn't it time is only a concept to describe changes?
Maybe we are both insane, because I agree with you, time is not something of matter and is a (one-way) concept to describe changes. So "time travel" is fanciful nonsense like the curvature of space-time. I don't buy time dilation either. It comes about from insisting that nothing can travel faster than light, which of course is nonsense too Wink

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 05:54
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
neville wrote:
I don't buy time dilation either.
So all those experiments proving it (like the GPS we use everyday) somehow are wrong? Have you recently tried using your GPS with the time dilation adjustment code removed?
Post 16 Mar 2014, 06:31
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neville



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neville
revolution wrote:
So all those experiments proving it (like the GPS we use everyday) somehow are wrong? Have you recently tried using your GPS with the time dilation adjustment code removed?
Yes, such experiments are also nonsense and actually don't prove anything of the sort. Your GPS receiver will work perfectly without the so-called time-dilation adjustment Smile

BTW I assume you are referring to relativity theory time dilation which predicts clocks on board GPS satellites will run faster than clocks on Earth by about 38 microseconds a day.

GPS satellites use accurate atomic clocks, but GPS receivers don't use their own free-running clocks because an atomic clock in every GPS receiver would be a little impractical for obvious reasons.

So there is actually no difference between "satellite time" and "earth time" and therefore no adjustments are necessary.

Even if GPS receivers used their own free-running clocks (a lot less accurate than atomic clocks of course), it would take several days for the accumulated time errors to exceed the normal GPS distance accuracy of about 2 metres. This could easily be corrected by periodically re-synchronising the receiver's clock and has nothing to do with time dilation.

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 08:38
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.
Post 16 Mar 2014, 08:45
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neville



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neville
revolution wrote:
There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.
Yes, you've spoken the truth this time GRB Razz

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 08:54
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gens



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gens
there is no such thing as a graviton
Post 16 Mar 2014, 14:20
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
if somebody could tell me,
if you put a clock near earth inner core,
and the same mechanism clock at my home,

my home clock would run faster compare to inner core clock?
why they don't see the differences are cause by gravity forces, or etc forces? until i learn more..

gens wrote:

there is no such thing as a graviton

hypothetical elementary particle, graviton, until someone prove they exists.
Post 16 Mar 2014, 17:31
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neville



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neville
gens wrote:
there is no such thing as a graviton
Bold statement! You have the proof? Or do you just know? See the true quote a few posts above...
sleepsleep wrote:
if somebody could tell me, if you put a clock near earth inner core, and the same mechanism clock at my home, my home clock would run faster compare to inner core clock?
If you mean due to the time dilation fallacy, then no. The clocks would run the same.
Actually, in a way that's further proof of the GPS myth exposed in my post above, because time dilation wouldn't be constant even across the surface of the earth. It would be different at the poles compared to the equator, so if the time adjustment is a fixed amount your GPS would start to accumulate errors if you moved in latitude.
sleepsleep wrote:
why they don't see the differences are cause by gravity forces, or etc forces? until i learn more..
But if you mean because of differences in acceleration due to gravity (g), then it depends on what type of clock mechanism you have.
An atomic clock would still work exactly the same at both locations, but a pendulum clock would definitely be different! The frequency of a pendulum of the same length is proportional to sqrt(g).

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Post 16 Mar 2014, 20:17
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