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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
i came to this thought today,

to check how much faith i use everyday, and it seems, a lot,

to believe the car could start when i turn my key
to believe this laptop would on once i press on the power button
to believe the food i eat just now is served properly by kitchen in restaurants,
to believe the car will drive in their respectful lane and not to hit me,

and it seems, once we got no idea about how certain things, events or etc works, basically, we use faith, and almost everything,

but do we need to use faith so much and is faith a good thing?

through transparency, check and monitor, real understanding, we probably could keep faith in very minimum if not zero.

faith lead to some kinda hope, or hope lead to faith,
but if everything could be made simple, and everyone try to understand, it means we switch faith to logic thinking,

if something works / doesnt works, we know where went wrong, and not cross fingers and hope it works.

there are lots of things to do as a human, at least i found some purpose in this post.

and to be frank, i see no difference in this kinda faith vs religion or believer faith.
Post 15 Jun 2013, 11:59
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi!
I think we should use logic and attempt, but when we did our best then we can be hopeful to get good result.
This kind of hope at least helps us to reduce our stress.
Wink
Post 15 Jun 2013, 13:43
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
i agree with you,
it sure helps reduce the anxiety,

it just i felt, how long should we let ourselves in idk or i am not so sure mode?
it seems to me, it is better to having a little but know detail about it, compare to having a lot, but know little about them. (just my idea)

eg, using a dice, using dice seems like a non-logic thing in one point of view,
because there should be no reason to use dice, unless the objective is to gain experience on the feeling to throw a dice, to expect a outcome from a dice.
Post 15 Jun 2013, 13:58
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
yes. faith is used and have to be used if u use logic, if u dont use logic about it then whatever.. also u might believe u dont have to be right all the time in order to make things work good.. wich is possible but it is a belief.. perhaps it can be proven.
Post 15 Jun 2013, 18:44
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TightCoderEx



Joined: 14 Feb 2013
Posts: 58
Location: Alberta
TightCoderEx
One of the definitions of faith is belief that is not based on proof. Each of the four examples you've given have elements of proof.
Quote:
and it seems, once we got no idea about how certain things, events or etc works, basically, we use faith, and almost everything,
I'm almost certain that if you saw a great big black slick of oil under your car, you wouldn't have any faith at all that it will run based of proof.

I do understand the general gist of what you're say, but many reasonable expectation might be more suited than faith.
Post 15 Jun 2013, 21:04
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
thanks matefkr & TightCoderEx

'reasonable expectation' is really good word here,

maybe reasonable expectation requires some small amount of proof,
while faith hold no proof?

so, this bring in degree of certainty, (this is how i view them)

logic ----> reasonable expectation ----> faith

but does degree of certainty required some sort of faith/belief or x factor as mentioned by matefkr?
Post 16 Jun 2013, 03:00
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TightCoderEx



Joined: 14 Feb 2013
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TightCoderEx
sleepsleep wrote:
but does degree of certainty required some sort of faith
Now that is a whole other can of worms, but certainly, it is our faith in our own judgment that leads us to believe the certainty of the outcome.
Post 16 Jun 2013, 09:47
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
i dont know for real sleepsleep.
but i take it as knowing is the sense of unquestionable knowing, and it must exist. there is belief where i know i might be wrong. then the belief can be so that i prove something, and i beliefe the proof is right, because i had nothing demonstrating the proof being wrong.. but it can go wrong as i may already know that i am a machine too, and i dont necesserily can known for certain all the parts of my machine, as these parts itself influences me knowing (this far it is a possibility, was not outruled, so maybe i am wrong that the highest (or lowest?) level of doubt will always exist, that is only believing what i prove about multitude of things.
but it is an experience, so i might experience knowing that a proof is right, although for now, i think i might have a reason to just believe a many proofs are right.
i think therefore i exist must be right, and also whatever is contrary to concluding and contrary to existence must be also right. but i might be wrong about something being conclusive.
if i exist, maybe i dont think. but if i think the existence is needed. but what is nonexistence, nonexitence is nothing of interest, becaue nothing have no interest in it either.
wow. lets make up something of similar quality.
so the path to making up this similar quality thing will be subject to doubt, but if one arrives it it must question thining or existence itself would it not be true. I need thinking to prove things, or just beliefe ( a certain feeling).
the thinking is machine i believe so it might go wrong and thinking follows in time, or if not it is as i say an instant of feeling.
thus the most elementary thing is the thinking, or its unquestionable components wich must be aimed to aproach to find something of similar quality.
there are different things. impossible to disprove.
Post 16 Jun 2013, 10:09
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
also there is this thing. this is also impossible to disprove as it is part of the perception. it must exist in the perception thingy.
Post 16 Jun 2013, 10:14
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
you know guys, i been pondering about this for hours,
it seems the idea of "assumption" is something very crucial for a conscious,

and how we code assumption in AI? because assumption or what we could name it, a conclusion/answer with lower or zero percent of certainty,

and i think of one experiment that probably useful in our case,

and it really shows our brain really awesome,
let us see if you could rank the below by width from smallest width to largest width, based on black border.

and what really happened here, is all based on assumption,

i haven't really measure it, so, idk the real answer or truth.

we should really detail out what is happening within our mind,
how the assumption arise?


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Post 16 Jun 2013, 11:16
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
what the fuck are u doing? pondering about ai? dammit dont be stupid. first have to make a better society. if u look around all technology is mostly just serving some societal culture nothing more. first have to make the culture work better.. then comes ai and so forth.
If u have no army and strong weapon and good security system and a hideout.. u have rather small chance of controlling an ai to be good and use the immense power for good.
dont ponder for them.
just dont. maybe u could read something wich was written by others but dont think.. just understand and memorize.. or do something else.
Post 18 Jun 2013, 16:37
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
yeah, better society, needs lot of engagement, need lot of ideas to increase realization, to them and to us as well,

i think, technology is one of the method to spread info, spread ideas, spread creativity and thus make culture work better.

the above test is to really ponder how we actually create assumption in first engagement, then belief in second engagement, then faith in last engagement.

so, which one got shortest width ? and largest width?
it seems as we stare, we use some sort of temporarily memory to remember, then do compare through those memories,
if you look at F, G and B, are they same width?

to understand how we think, perceive and hopefully figure out how to start everybody to think how they think, perceive,

i dont think we should build a culture that ask people to not thinking, understand, realize,

like i said many times ago, truth, humanity, justice, achieve them through logic, sincerity, efficiency,

these are the core values.
Post 18 Jun 2013, 17:46
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
sleepsleep u are wrong.
u ignore something very important: humans (even urself and a lot of others u can observe this on).
people have habbits wich are hard to forget. they are repeatedly engaged.
IF U THINK FOR THEM, IT REINFORCES THEIR ERRONOUS LOGIC THAT THEIR "METHOD" WORKS.. WICH KEEPS UP THEIR HABBIT.
old-old technology is enough to create better society. dont ponder about new things. im not wrong.. human are very similar u dont have to doubt this yet. u could chose to doubt something else.. but again. it is sure that old technology is enough.. but if it is not applied and indeed it is not applied so.. it can be only due to the organisation / managemenet secret services system. Nothing else. education system is known to change for better and it is not changed.
so it is clear most evidence shows that conclusion is true. they wont realize because for them it is good.
Post 18 Jun 2013, 18:05
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
on the other hand sleepsleep.. u might ask them something much enough a lot of things: for one they should prove themselves (because they came first to this world as far as u aware). they should prove they are worthy for your work to be given to them. they should make it so that they are unable to influence u. and they should prove this.
other then this.. wait for me... if i can do something.. then i can do something.. just keep up getting occupied with something fun.. other then creative..
Post 18 Jun 2013, 18:07
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
remember: time works agains everyone. even against your enemies.
Post 18 Jun 2013, 18:09
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
also remember.. current emotional situation of yours can influence your decisions about something wich u dont know (this is already well known dont worry, u can read about emotional things).
Post 18 Jun 2013, 18:10
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
they are in charge.. basicly u might see this.. just ask them.. prove themselves and make a better world.. a perfect one because it is possible.. hen they will receive your work.
Post 18 Jun 2013, 18:11
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
u might start ruling out that u are hallucinating. but i ensure u.. it is entirley technologically possible to read and write human mind from distance..
Post 18 Jun 2013, 18:13
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
do not think about solutions for remote control.. because if they dont know it u should not help them.
Post 18 Jun 2013, 18:16
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
things.. lot of things.. this can protect u from outside radiatioin.. there. on the other hand there have to be made a perfect state.. u have to make weapons to protect urself.. because a state recquires force. u have to make something wich shields your thoughts. well enough.. u have to hide.. best is to hide. then u have to shoot down all the satellites and airbaloons and things like this. so on and so forth. if u want them to realize example should be shown.. in theory.. only they have habbits and have done too much sick shit.. they dont want others to arrise into power.. because they fear punishment.
Post 18 Jun 2013, 18:20
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