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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Masood.Sandking wrote:

Before answering your replies, i should know what do you believe and what you do not...
do you believe in any religion? do you have any beliefs or doctrine?
do you believe God exists?

in another point of view,
would my answer affect how you gonna reply?
and why would my answer affect how you gonna reply?

and if you read again what i have posted, i actually answered already your requirement to communicate.


Last edited by sleepsleep on 08 Jun 2013, 15:12; edited 1 time in total
Post 08 Jun 2013, 14:59
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
malpolud wrote:
... I just think that currently Islam is used by some people to control some minds, and these minds are a threat for rest of the world. Just like Christianity was during the middle ages. ...

i'm totally agree...
Post 08 Jun 2013, 15:09
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Masood.Sandking wrote:

i don't currently pray (as the muslims)...

then maybe you got to start asking urself, are you still a imember?
or you are pretend to be imember because you know, fear, acceptance, living around place (iran) encircled by imember where not following what other imember did is a serious offence, and probably death sentence.

i suppose you stop going to friday congregation already, am i right?
or you go friday, but you stop praying? and you only pray during friday so that other imember see you there and yahoo, you are still imember...

i gonna add one more view for you,

since you said and claimed,
Masood.Sandking wrote:

i don't currently pray (as the muslims)...

if it is possible for you to say and claim above words in public, in family gathering, to relatives, to friends, to your teacher?

i assume the answer is, you only could say and claim it on this board.

then you should see the side effect of this 'ithing' if you could reason the above self situation.
Post 08 Jun 2013, 15:11
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6034
Location: Poland
MHajduk
If Masood.Sandking is a Zoroastrian, he doesn't need to pray the same way as Muslims. There still exists some Zoroastrian minority in Iran.


Last edited by MHajduk on 08 Jun 2013, 16:15; edited 1 time in total
Post 08 Jun 2013, 16:09
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi!

sleepsleep wrote:
100% belief is equal to 0% open mind, do you agree?


if 100% belief is equivalent to brainwashing, i agree with you...

sleepsleep wrote:
let me give you one example,
if 80% people who driving porsche dead on road due to accident, what is the statistic probability that driver are careless vs something wrong with the car?

to say what muslim did wouldnt affect your judgement is equally saying, i believe porsche car will always a car without any defects, if accident happened, it is always due to driver faults.

it is easy and selfish for imember like you, to push all the sins, mistakes, errors and etc negative values to imember themselves without trying to reason, do all these negative values are actually push, thought, psycho from the 'var a' book and words.


good example!
do you know why those 80% dead on road due to accident?
because they had retouched Porsche:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches

sleepsleep wrote:
1. we should against ithing
2. we should against other organized religion.


are those sentences your principles in our discussion?
it's impossible, because they are statements that we want to conclude!

sleepsleep wrote:
in another point of view,
would my answer affect how you gonna reply?
and why would my answer affect how you gonna reply?


Yes.
suppose that you want to talk about derivative of a function, before that you should know does your opponent know what is the function; or you want to talk about property of something, when your opponent even does not accepted existence of that thing.

sleepsleep wrote:
then maybe you got to start asking urself, are you still a imember?
or you are pretend to be imember because you know, fear, acceptance, living around place (iran) encircled by imember where not following what other imember did is a serious offence, and probably death sentence.


i don't need to pretend i'm an imember here...
i don't fear from imembers... they does not kill me!
death! hmm...
what a horrible thing did you imagined!

sleepsleep wrote:
i suppose you stop going to friday congregation already, am i right?
or you go friday, but you stop praying? and you only pray during friday so that other imember see you there and yahoo, you are still imember...


i didn't even go friday congregation...
but i did pray at home when i wanted...

sleepsleep wrote:
if it is possible for you to say and claim above words in public, in family gathering, to relatives, to friends, to your teacher?


Yes. i even can shout this in public! (but maybe they say he is crazy!)
it's usual that students argue with teacher about these things.
Post 08 Jun 2013, 16:13
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
although one of the worst things here is censorship... some of them are for se*ual contents, but some of them are for political, ideological and religious contents.
facebook is censored, some of wikipedia pages, twitter, many news agencies... and more...
Post 08 Jun 2013, 16:23
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6034
Location: Poland
MHajduk
Masood.Sandking wrote:
although one of the worst things here is censorship... some of them are for se*ual contents, but some of them are for political, ideological and religious contents.
facebook is censored, some of wikipedia pages, twitter, many news agencies... and more...
I read somewhere that despite of the control over information coming in and out you have a quite good Intranet infrastructure with a high transmission speed. Is it true?
Post 08 Jun 2013, 16:33
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi MHajduk!
no, that's not true yet.
here most internet connections are 56Kb! for 1Mb or higher speeds you should pay its expensive cost.
that Intranet you said, will be launched later; and i think that is not good for people... because they say it will be replaced with Internet! then they will limit our access to world quite... but i think they will not replace that with Internet because then people will f*** government...
Post 08 Jun 2013, 17:06
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6034
Location: Poland
MHajduk
Seems I was misled by some media. I read it around 2000 when in Poland we hadn't such connection possibilities as it is now. Or maybe it referred to the communication between the Iranian universities. Anyway, I read about the hyper-speed fiber optic net and it was truly astonishing to me those times.
Post 08 Jun 2013, 17:14
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Masood.Sandking wrote:
good example!
do you know why those 80% dead on road due to accident?
because they had retouched Porsche:


could i assume the original teaching went deviant, and major figures rolling out their own version with much differences compare to original?

but how much negative values are created by those deviant sect,
and how much positive values are actually inside original teaching?

another question is,
would and should human accept a religion or any religion, ideas, sects, groups, authorities, that promote negative values? or having negative values in their rules, laws, books, or messengers?

Masood.Sandking wrote:
are those sentences your principles in our discussion?
it's impossible, because they are statements that we want to conclude!


according to this thread title, yes,
that is what i concluded based on my perspective, experiences, understanding, reasoning, ..

the idea you are here posting replies, because you disagree with my conclusions or what i claimed, i am ok with that, and i wish i could hear from your part of sincere reason with logic, understanding for a win win communication.

because i dont wish to hear conclusion like, human shouldnt use logic when dealing with religion, 'var a' or its gangs, or whatever imembers did, they are beyond what human could think and etc,

because saying things like that is equal to,

this code failed to assemble, period, they are beyond what human could debug.
(maybe some or most people couldnt debug it, but for sure it doesnt mean all human or nobody could debug it)


Quote:
Yes.
suppose that you want to talk about derivative of a function, before that you should know does your opponent know what is the function; or you want to talk about property of something, when your opponent even does not accepted existence of that thing.

nobody have to accept it in order to talk about it, it is enough to aware about it,
in another words, one doesnt need to accept ithing or its 'var a', to be authorized to talk bout it, challenge it, disprove it,

from what i or other members posts, you could reason why we said, human should reject this 'ithing, var a, ileaders' and so on', we giving logical reasons to against this ithing stuffs,

and i, of course welcome your views, perspectives, ideas on where the flaws in our logic perspective, and that is the reason why you are here, to share where we are wrong, and guide us, and through logic and sound reasons,

Quote:

if one gonna said, it is raining because 'var a' makes rain, 'var a' is powerful, it is draught because somebody hold the water, and it is 'var a' who cause rain to stop, since 'var a' give rain and stop rain, 'var a' is all power, control all rains,

Quote:

why 'var a' is all powerful,
because 'var a' in its book, claimed it is all powerful

then i see no point to further such discussion.

Masood.Sandking wrote:

i didn't even go friday congregation...
but i did pray at home when i wanted...

so what sect of ithing is that, you mind to share with us? or it is a new sect founded by you?
Post 09 Jun 2013, 23:02
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi!

sleepsleep wrote:
could i assume the original teaching went deviant, and major figures rolling out their own version with much differences compare to original?


Original teaching still exists, Quran says:

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.
15:9

If you don't want to read that sentence, look at history, you will see this is true; only about Quran.

sleepsleep wrote:
but how much negative values are created by those deviant sect,
and how much positive values are actually inside original teaching?


I think you know the answers, because you said you know these things deeply.
if you don't know, i answer both questions "Too much".

sleepsleep wrote:
would and should human accept a religion or any religion, ideas, sects, groups, authorities, that promote negative values? or having negative values in their rules, laws, books, or messengers?


Please talk with evidences. what rule? what law? ...?
but don't show me what muslims are doing, because Islam and Muslims unfortunately are different...

sleepsleep wrote:
according to this thread title, yes,
that is what i concluded based on my perspective, experiences, understanding, reasoning, ..


we want to conclude B from A, not B from B; this is sophistication, not logic.
if I had your experiences, understandings, resoning and I was agree with your conclusions, i didn't discuss with you...

sleepsleep wrote:
i dont wish to hear conclusion like, human shouldnt use logic when dealing with religion, 'var a' or its gangs, or whatever imembers did, they are beyond what human could think and etc,

because saying things like that is equal to,

this code failed to assemble, period, they are beyond what human could debug.
(maybe some or most people couldnt debug it, but for sure it doesnt mean all human or nobody could debug it)


I'm agree with what you said...

sleepsleep wrote:
nobody have to accept it in order to talk about it, it is enough to aware about it,


I don't say you must accept God, Islam and everything...
I just said an example, because you should know that i have to know what do you agree with, otherwise i can not convince you.

sleepsleep wrote:
we giving logical reasons to against this ithing stuffs,


what is your logical reasons?
against 'ithing' or 'imembers' ...?
you are concluding a general verdict from what some special groups of muslims do, or some religions do, or ... .

sleepsleep wrote:
so what sect of ithing is that, you mind to share with us? or it is a new sect founded by you?


friday congregation is not necessary... also if i'm not muslim, i can talk about ithing, as you talk. i didn't found any sect of ithing. my parents are Shia...
Post 10 Jun 2013, 07:34
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Masood.Sandking wrote:

Original teaching still exists, Quran says:

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.
15:9

If you don't want to read that sentence, look at history, you will see this is true; only about Quran.

so i will interpret your comment like this, let me know if i am wrong about it,

so, for you, the ithing is only about quran, not about iprophet hadiths, what his saying, behaviour and so on,
so original and real teaching is only about quran and quran only, am i get it right?

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Please talk with evidences. what rule? what law? ...?
but don't show me what muslims are doing, because Islam and Muslims unfortunately are different...

i am surprise you dont see those negative values inside quran,

imember is the product of ithing, they are related, like i said previously, one can be selfish and split these 2, whatever the imember did, doesnt represent ithing, tell me, does it makes sense for you to split it like that when they both are connected?

Masood.Sandking wrote:

we want to conclude B from A, not B from B; this is sophistication, not logic.

sorry, i dont get this, could you explain further, thank you,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

what is your logical reasons?
against 'ithing' or 'imembers' ...?
you are concluding a general verdict from what some special groups of muslims do, or some religions do, or ... .

imembers = people, human who practice ithing.
the logical reasons are, ithing only bring more negative values on earth,
ithing doesnt conform to truth, humanity and justice.
ithing doesnt conform to logic and efficiency,
Post 10 Jun 2013, 12:10
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi!

sleepsleep wrote:
so i will interpret your comment like this, let me know if i am wrong about it,

so, for you, the ithing is only about quran, not about iprophet hadiths, what his saying, behaviour and so on,
so original and real teaching is only about quran and quran only, am i get it right?


Sunnis:
ithing = The Holy Book (Quran) + Who brought it (Prophet)

Shias:
ithing = The Holy Book (Quran) + Who brought it (Prophet) + What He Ordered To Muslims (12 Imams)

I'm agree with Shias rather than Sunnis...

sleepsleep wrote:
i am surprise you dont see those negative values inside quran,


Being surprised has no application in our discussion... let me know what you mean and what you saw in ithing...

sleepsleep wrote:
imember is the product of ithing, they are related, like i said previously, one can be selfish and split these 2, whatever the imember did, doesnt represent ithing, tell me, does it makes sense for you to split it like that when they both are connected?


how perverted imember is the product of non-perverted ithing?
maybe these are somehow related... but you can not judge about both of them alike...
this is my principle, you can not judge about X and what is related to X alike.
if you have problem with this principle, say why...

sleepsleep wrote:
sorry, i dont get this, could you explain further, thank you,


I mean you are bagging the question! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
Look up recent replies; I didn't agree with X and we wanted to discuss about it, then you said X is your principle... right?

sleepsleep wrote:
imembers = people, human who practice ithing.
the logical reasons are, ithing only bring more negative values on earth,
ithing doesnt conform to truth, humanity and justice.
ithing doesnt conform to logic and efficiency,


According to your definition of imember: whole people that you considered imember, they are not actually imember... just some of them...
ithing does not bring more negative values on earth even it's trying to bring humanity and justice.
when you say those things i think that you didn't read Quran except some sentences.
I say it again, if you have evidences please bring them... what part of Quran is against reflection, humanity or justice?
Post 10 Jun 2013, 13:54
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
both claimed they are real ithing member, their sect are legitimate ithing, both think they are right, correct and so on,

but how true is it?

since you mentioned,
Masood.Sandking wrote:
Shias:
ithing = The Holy Book (Quran) + Who brought it (Prophet) + What He Ordered To Muslims (12 Imams)

does your prophet pray 5 times each day?

Masood.Sandking wrote:
Being surprised has no application in our discussion... let me know what you mean and what you saw in ithing...

if you willing to re read what i have posted so far, i already mentioned whats wrong with ithing, when you quote those sentences, i already told you how wrong, how nonsense they are,

Masood.Sandking wrote:
how perverted imember is the product of non-perverted ithing?

because perverted imember is the product of perverted ithing.
the same ithing produce perverted and less perverted imembers.

Masood.Sandking wrote:
maybe these are somehow related... but you can not judge about both of them alike...

so you agree they are related, or no?
or a 50 50?

does ithing shape imember lifestyle?
how imember behave,
how imember dress,
how imember do business,
how imember treat their non-imember friends,
how imember eat,
how imember divide their property,
how imember view man and women,
how imember think bout 'var a' and prophets,
how imember think about origin of life,
how imember view other religions,

Masood.Sandking wrote:
Look up recent replies; I didn't agree with X and we wanted to discuss about it, then you said X is your principle... right?

please re-read, i already answered what you request as i see those are your requirement to continue communicate.

Masood.Sandking wrote:
when you say those things i think that you didn't read Quran except some sentences.
I say it again, if you have evidences please bring them... what part of Quran is against reflection, humanity or justice?

please re-read.
Post 10 Jun 2013, 15:13
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi!

sleepsleep wrote:
both claimed they are real ithing member, their sect are legitimate ithing, both think they are right, correct and so on,

but how true is it?


OK, so i prefer to be Shia or Sunni rather than other sects that invented many years and centuries later!!!
Of course! both thinks they're right. this is you, who have to distinguish who is right. Shia has many evidences from Sunni references that Sunnis confirmed!
Also many Sunni leaders and people became Shia by reading the Al-Ghadir.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghadir
How can i discuss about Shia and Sunni when you are ignoring the whole islam?!

sleepsleep wrote:
does your prophet pray 5 times each day?


Shias and Sunnis performs 5 prayers each day, but Shias mostly performs those 5 prayers in 3 times.
Also their prophet did this. they said why? he said because of convenience of my nation.
these are Ancillaries of the Faith, not Roots.

... Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful. (Quran 2:185)

sleepsleep wrote:
because perverted imember is the product of perverted ithing.
the same ithing produce perverted and less perverted imembers.


it's not convincing...
some people just performs some parts of ithing that they like, and performs something against ithing... then you can't judge about ithing and what they do alike.

you say:
1. !(A) is product of !(B)
2. !(B) is product of B
3. then !(A) is product of B
4. so judge about !(A) and B alike

you can replace A and B with anything you want and conclude wrong statements...

sleepsleep wrote:
so you agree they are related, or no?
or a 50 50?

does ithing shape imember lifestyle?
how imember behave,
how imember dress,
how imember do business,
how imember treat their non-imember friends,
how imember eat,
how imember divide their property,
how imember view man and women,
how imember think bout 'var a' and prophets,
how imember think about origin of life,
how imember view other religions,


if i say i'm agree with that they are related, then want do you want to conclude?
please don't say: then everything imember do, ithing said, then ithing is bad because imember is bad.
imember is human... and humans, not only imembers and not only xmembers, can do bad things.

sleepsleep wrote:
please re-read, i already answered what you request as i see those are your requirement to continue communicate.

sleepsleep wrote:
please re-read.


i just see your judgement, not your evidences, not even some sentences of that book, that you analyzed.

You guys, think others are brainwashed... you are right, but i think you are brainwashed too.

Regards.
Post 10 Jun 2013, 22:31
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