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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi!

malpolud wrote:
So Allah does not allow you to live peacefully with people of other beliefs? They are disbelievers, so you ought to kill them?

How about drinking alcohol? I met quite a lot of Muslims that were completely drunk, telling me about Allah.


He allows you to live peacefully with people of other beliefs, but with some conditions and that conditions are logical.

And about the wine:

They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.
2:219

O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.
5:90

Satan only wants to cause between you animosity and hatred through intoxicants and gambling and to avert you from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. So will you not desist?
5:91

O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.
4:43

You should read Quran yourself without any prejudice and think about it to know what it means. Don't just look at muslim people because a lot of them are aberrant.
Post 07 Jun 2013, 04:32
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Masood.Sandking wrote:
Hi!
Who said all accidents, tsunamis and ... is related to evil?!

people die, family members gone, misfortune, sick, and more,
you could term it as experience, but if you ask urself sincerely, do you want to have ur hand or leg gone? mute, deaft, ugly and more? call caused by accidents, tsunami or etc activities that most probably you will claimed, from your 'var a' or you call it, 'predestination'?

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Satan has free will, like us, so he can do good things or bad things. and he was already a good creature. then he became jealous of Adam:

satan doesnt exists, human is capable than satan in doing negative stuffs,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.
7:11

you got to separate story and fact,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

[ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."
7:12

[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.
7:13

[Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."
7:14

[ Allah ] said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved."
7:15

[Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.
7:16

Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful [to You]."
7:17

[ Allah ] said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."
7:18



Masood.Sandking wrote:

You said 'var a' is all power. but we have free will.

if 'var a' is all power, it basically means, what 'var a' know, or will know, or already know, wouldnt be wrong, logically, it means, no free will because everything will exists based on what 'var a' know,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Indeed, Allah does not wrong the people at all, but it is the people who are wronging themselves.
10:44

that is snake oil sentence,
first, 'var a' doesnt exists,
second, there is one thing we call karma, if you hit a person, that person will most probably hit you back, (nothing to do with 'var a')

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Some events are natural not punishment. and some events are test.

for sure, nobody know which one is punishment and which one is test,
they will claim according to their desire,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,
2:155

nothing to do with 'var a', if you lazy, u will get hungry, do lots of bad things, u fear police, gamble, risk share, you will probably loss wealth, drive 200km/s, you risk life,

and these all are basic common sense, nothing to do with 'var a'

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Who, when disaster strikes them, say, "Indeed we belong to Allah , and indeed to Him we will return."
2:156

people hope when they are hopeless situation, and that is logic, nothing to do with 'var a'

Masood.Sandking wrote:

It is different to deal with different kinds of people. but you think there is just one general sentence of killing.

And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
29:47

the people of 'ithing' committed injustice by believing things that never exists.

they believe the book hold truth where the reality is totally different from what they claimed,

it is ok if people want to believe and memorize the whole book, no problem, but issue when imember try to push their lies, by claiming their book is the only truth, their 'var a' is the only 'var a', and pushing these ideas to mass population, back to 1000 years ago methods, and that is totally wrong and injustice, totally against truth, humanity and justice,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.
6:108

'var a' simply broke its own teaching by cursing people who deny him.

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
60:8

without 'var a', even 'var a' never exists in history, human should still treat other human based on truth, humanity and justice,
you dont need a book to teach you how to treat other people, those are basic humanity,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
60:9

you wouldnt make friend with ur enemy who want to kill you,
if they are your enemy, based on politic, business and so on, not until the level to wipe you off the map, you probably give them chance and see,
these thing are basic common sense

Masood.Sandking wrote:

And here is about disbelievers:

They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
4:89

basically, ithing will force istuff to everybody, if they dont like and against istuff, you can kill them,


Masood.Sandking wrote:

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
4:90

nobody should give you money or anything just because they got different belief compare to you, and that is common sense.

the cause of fighting is because imember trying to push istuffs into mass population,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

You said "... the whole idea is to confine you to stop thinking, and start believing, start hoping, dont check reality, dont pursue truth, as if the book is whole truth". There is more sentences about thinking and checking reality but I found these:

Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding.
39:18

i hope you get it, and start reason,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason.
8:22

then why the ipopulation so deaf and dumb? they never reason.

Masood.Sandking wrote:

And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.
17:36

to pursue thing that we got no knowledge is explore, science, discovery,
'var a' try to instil fear on people who want to know more, learn more,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?
47:24

another bias from 'var a', by claiming those who not follow ithing got their heart locked,
no proof, self reference, you see, 'var a' can say anything he likes, insult and so on,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.
4:82

you read how many ill-logic, baseless stuff in that book, all contradict with what 'var a' said and do or perform,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

And [in] the alternation of night and day and [in] what Allah sends down from the sky of provision and gives life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and [in His] directing of the winds are signs for a people who reason.
45:5

u know, then moon shine because i command the moon to shine,

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Say, "I only advise you of one [thing] - that you stand for Allah , [seeking truth] in pairs and individually, and then give thought." There is not in your companion any madness. He is only a warner to you before a severe punishment.
34:46

rapist, killer, robber, any sane human will not have sex with underage if they really care and love those kids.

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use reason.
2:164

i command the moon to shine.

Masood.Sandking wrote:

Also there is a lot of scientific signs in Quran to think about them, look here:
http://www.institutealislam.com/quran-and-modern-science-conflict-or-conciliation-part-one-by-dr-zakir-naik/

would u then accept if science claimed by ithing is wrong?
Post 07 Jun 2013, 05:19
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Masood.Sandking wrote:

You should read Quran yourself without any prejudice and think about it to know what it means. Don't just look at muslim people because a lot of them are aberrant.

that is one great psycho book, full with lies and ill-logic, self-reference, baseless claimed and more,

whatever shit perform by imember is their own matter, they doesnt represent ithing,

but everything come from 'var a',

another snake oil, when would you start reason?
Post 07 Jun 2013, 05:23
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi sleepsleep!
Before answering your replies, i should know what do you believe and what you do not...
do you believe in any religion? do you have any beliefs or doctrine?
do you believe God exists?
Post 07 Jun 2013, 14:23
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malpolud



Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 344
Location: Broken hippocampus
malpolud
Masood.Sandking I think you should stop judging people according to their beliefs.

Cheers I hope, you will be free from the religious entanglement one day.
Post 07 Jun 2013, 14:52
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Masood.Sandking wrote:
Hi sleepsleep!
Before answering your replies, i should know what do you believe and what you do not...
do you believe in any religion? do you have any beliefs or doctrine?
do you believe God exists?


hi masood,
it is not important what i believe or whats not, imo, if you really sincere to communicate, to reason, to exchange ideas, please stop using those book sentence, use your own words, make urself think and reason, instead of copy paste those sentences,

i shun the ithing because i realize the best stuffs we as a human should try achieve is, truth, humanity and justice, through logic and efficiency,
Post 07 Jun 2013, 15:25
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
[quote="edfed"]perverted islam is a danger, of course.
perverted anything is a danger, in fact.

example, take the sexual activity:
use it with love, give love and good feelings to your partner, it does something good for everybody, your minds will continue to fly in paradize .

use it with misrespect, you will of couse give pleasure to the partner (the body is like that), but the mind will receive a huge hate discharge. and both minds will continue to dive in hell (one in the misrespect for the others, the other in fear of the one).

now, speaking about religion danger... speaking about religion is like speaking of anything else. you can just try to understand what is the meaning of its existence.

for religion, i believe (new religion) that it is a melting of all the old knowledges in one single category.
mix philosophy(jesus articles), litterature(mythology), science(god facts), technics, history, etc.. together, and you get a complete religious pack.

tolkien tryed to invent one, and sometimes, when i hear to some young people, i see a religious belief, like it the gondor really exist, etc...
the guilty is the time, so short that we die, so long that we are annoyed enough to seek new way to entertain.[/quote]
well not all perverted (not acting according to purpose but acting against it) is bad. for example using a sniper rifle in a perverted way (for instance putting it near a walland standing on it to climb into a window where there was a fire not lit by whatever.. well many thing have effects wich can cause evil and otherwise.
me is eating.
Post 07 Jun 2013, 16:13
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
[quote="AsmGuru62"]I think if US will stop buying their oil - they (ME countries) will be quite unhappy.
So, I am not sure about the exploitation.[/quote]

well but mabe not regarding this one, as many lands can be transformed into arable lands or whatnot. so food can be produced. then other things can also be. there is oil and solar energy. and whatever. perhaps.
Post 07 Jun 2013, 16:16
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matefkr



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matefkr
Post 07 Jun 2013, 16:20
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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matefkr
well i know christianity.. and someone read from bible, me read from some bible, so its kinda crap mostly. there are one or two things interesting though.
hmm. i have read something about allah the islam thing.. and it was rather similar to the christian god thing. wich was both contradictory so bullshit. i dont read more about such.
I may believe in the server administrator.. but only if he is good, and then, i have little to no basis to believe he would help me (as he have done not so far).
Post 07 Jun 2013, 16:28
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
i may postulate that one always believes in something. perhaps believing in something rather horrible or contradictory, or stupid might influence one indirectly in avoiding something wrong.. but it is rather hard to forsee and in the meantime it causes immediate damage.
Post 07 Jun 2013, 16:46
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi!

malpolud wrote:
Masood.Sandking I think you should stop judging people according to their beliefs.

Cheers I hope, you will be free from the religious entanglement one day.


judging people? do you mean i don't have permission to talk?!
i think You guys created this topic and You are judging about other beliefs easily, not me!
I am already free, but i think Islam is not wrong.
however muslims are mistaken, but it does not affect my judgment.
there are too many people out there that thinks enlightenment and irreligion are the same thing... but i don't think like this.
Post 08 Jun 2013, 06:48
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi...
sleepsleep wrote:
Masood.Sandking wrote:
Hi sleepsleep!
Before answering your replies, i should know what do you believe and what you do not...
do you believe in any religion? do you have any beliefs or doctrine?
do you believe God exists?


hi masood,
it is not important what i believe or whats not, imo, ...


a little illogical!

so imagine someone is trying to proof a math theorem, when his oppnent has not accepted math principles!!!

conclusion of discussion is not possible when both sides don't have common principles.
Post 08 Jun 2013, 07:03
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
I think you have basic problems.
instead of talking about Islam, first let's talk about God's Existence if you don't believe it...
do you agree with Gödel's ontological proof?
look here : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_ontological_proof


Last edited by Masood.Sandking on 08 Jun 2013, 11:32; edited 5 times in total
Post 08 Jun 2013, 10:25
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
[quote="Masood.Sandking"]Hi...
[quote="sleepsleep"][quote="Masood.Sandking"]Hi sleepsleep!
Before answering your replies, i should know what do you believe and what you do not...
do you believe in any religion? do you have any beliefs or doctrine?
do you believe God exists?[/quote]

hi masood,
it is not important what i believe or whats not, imo, ...[/quote]

a little illogical!

so imagine someone is trying to proof a math theorem, when his oppnent has not accepted math principles!!!

conclusion of discussion is not possible when both sides don't have common principles.[/quote]

well if someone have proof. then the one might have logic thus conclusion is possible to be drawn from the discussion by this person.
but there must be common grounds of some sorts. but be advised.. the human body and mind is a machine too.. along with the soul. of course many points can be problematic.
um.. but this is not something to assess.. because first comes always the moral (the absolute moral, not that of the society). and also comes nowadays situations.. looking at technologies possibilities, behavior of humans.. is it enough to create happiness and general wellbeing.. or still missmanagement to be found (for one reason or another)? if so.. then u might live for the wellbeing of all souls.. or not.
at any rate.. here u might conclude that wellbeing of all souls: means that all souls under the check of a system wich u know must exist. so far something as universe and galaxies.. these are not under check. then supposing it will all be under check.. what then? this should be described.. something told about it (i can tell there is a thing for the soul wich makes it feel good, and this thing to be uncovered. so. i dont waste more time here, about this). but u might not want to aproach the absolute moral, so then whatever (and of course u might be wrong, this is something always persisting as a possibility in principle, yet there might be heaven when it wont be proved to any of the cases yet there will be no suffering either.)
Post 08 Jun 2013, 10:34
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malpolud



Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 344
Location: Broken hippocampus
malpolud
Masood.Sandking wrote:
judging people? do you mean i don't have permission to talk?!.

Where did I write such thing?

You said to sleepsleep that you will answer his replies if he says what he believes in. That is judging according to ones believes.

Masood.Sandking wrote:
i think You guys created this topic and You are judging about other beliefs easily, not me!.


No I am not. I am saying that killing people in the name of religion is wrong. People who excuse killing other people with anything (like religion) are wrong.

People coming to western countries, living for their money, and later on killing western people are wrong.

Besides I am against assault of US for Middle East countries. You have right to defend your countries independence. But you should not justify anything with religion.

Masood.Sandking wrote:
I am already free, but i think Islam is not wrong.


Case 1: You are free. You chose to believe and let others choose their way. You are still free.

Case 2: You are free. You are threatened (pray, or you will be damned). You pray, but you are not free - you do that because of fear not believes.

Case 3: You believe and choose to force others in the name of religion. You are so not free, compelling others to your stuff.

Masood.Sandking wrote:
however muslims are mistaken, but it does not affect my judgment.
there are too many people out there that thinks enlightenment and irreligion are the same thing... but i don't think like this.


I don't quite understand what you have written here so I can not answer.

Cheers!

_________________
There's nothing special about it,
It's either there when you're born or not.
Post 08 Jun 2013, 11:37
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
malpolud.. free comes with specification.
one is free from something.. due to something.. wich makes one susceptible to something else (in multiple cases this is true).

what u have mentioned u are very unfree because u let others to chose their way.. wich might influence your freedom. so rather u are not free from being susceptible to ...

...
Post 08 Jun 2013, 12:05
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Masood.Sandking



Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Location: Iran
Masood.Sandking
Hi malpould!

malpolud wrote:
You said to sleepsleep that you will answer his replies if he says what he believes in. That is judging according to ones believes.


No, that is common ground, common principles, ... . if you want to discuss logically that is necessary...

malpolud wrote:
... I am saying that killing people in the name of religion is wrong. People who excuse killing other people with anything (like religion) are wrong. ...


OK, then we have common opinion!

malpolud wrote:
Case 1: You are free. You chose to believe and let others choose their way. You are still free.


This is obviously true, but i don't know why you said this, because i didn't force someone to anything!

malpolud wrote:
Case 2: You are free. You are threatened (pray, or you will be damned). You pray, but you are not free - you do that because of fear not believes.


i don't currently pray (as the muslims)...

malpolud wrote:
Case 3: You believe and choose to force others in the name of religion. You are so not free, compelling others to your stuff.


instead of case 3, you could just say shut up!
i just said my opinions. i didn't force anyone, but if you think i did, then excuse me...

malpolud wrote:
I don't quite understand what you have written here so I can not answer.


i mean rejection of god and religion, is not necessary to prove you are free and you have a better thinking!
i hope you understand.
about freedom i agree with matefkr.
sorry for my english!
Post 08 Jun 2013, 12:22
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malpolud



Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 344
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malpolud
I got a feeling, you think I am trying to insult you or prove you are wrong. Well I am not trying any of these. Knowing that, read what I said one more time.

I do not think that you forced anybody. I just think that currently Islam is used by some people to control some minds, and these minds are a threat for rest of the world. Just like Christianity was during the middle ages. Have you heard of Inquisition - shortly killing people who had different point of view?
Post 08 Jun 2013, 13:59
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Masood.Sandking wrote:
i think You guys created this topic and You are judging about other beliefs easily,

no, i am not judging easily, i am judging seriously after going through the imaterials, istories, ipeople, iwords, and 'var a'

i dont say something i dont know, and i would dare to say, you dont know the ithings deep enough. (please dont view it as humiliation, i dont mean it, i mean this istuffs can go really deep and you may not like what you gonna know, realize later)

are you ready? and are you open minded?
100% belief is equal to 0% open mind, do you agree?

Masood.Sandking wrote:
however muslims are mistaken, but it does not affect my judgment.

let me give you one example,
if 80% people who driving porsche dead on road due to accident, what is the statistic probability that driver are careless vs something wrong with the car?

to say what muslim did wouldnt affect your judgement is equally saying, i believe porsche car will always a car without any defects, if accident happened, it is always due to driver faults.

it is easy and selfish for imember like you, to push all the sins, mistakes, errors and etc negative values to imember themselves without trying to reason, do all these negative values are actually push, thought, psycho from the 'var a' book and words.

Masood.Sandking wrote:
there are too many people out there that thinks enlightenment and irreligion are the same thing

i dont see you actually understand what you are saying here,
first, what is religion?
then what is enlightenment?

i dont mean to bash you, i just want you to think, reason, logically so that sincere communication would help u, me and everybody else learn something, appreciate something, realize something, and acknowledge something.

Masood.Sandking wrote:
so imagine someone is trying to proof a math theorem, when his oppnent has not accepted math principles!!!

i agree with what you said, but how do you fit this into our context?
Quote:
Before answering your replies, i should know what do you believe and what you do not...
do you believe in any religion? do you have any beliefs or doctrine?
do you believe God exists?

please let me know how ur statement fit into our context?

Masood.Sandking wrote:
conclusion of discussion is not possible when both sides don't have common principles.

1. we should against ithing
2. we should against other organized religion.

if you are going to take all the ithing book, quote it as those words are proven fact, then what is the point of discussion?
i already put myself into imember perspective, view ithing, 'var a' from a imember perspective, and i understand the stuffs inside there, and thats what i believe we all as a human, logical human need to against such ideas because they are totally corrupted, evil and contained lots of negative values from the point of view of truth, humanity and justice through logic and efficiency.

Masood.Sandking wrote:

I think you have basic problems.
instead of talking about Islam, first let's talk about God's Existence if you don't believe it...

a simple question for you, does ithing only about 'var a'?
if ithing is all ONLY about 'var a', then i got no issue with this religion, the biggest problem is, ithing is about a whole life system of a enslaved human on earth.
your ithing is not only about 'var a', it covers more than you could imagine and basically, you cant separate them.

of course, if you mean, you want to start communicate first with me regarding 'var a', i am willing to share what i realize with you.
Post 08 Jun 2013, 14:51
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