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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
well,
what if we stop taking "money / currency" for the services we provided?

i mean, i don't want your money, but i want a record of minutes.
and economy turns into exchanging of minutes.

eg,
there will be cloud database to record how much each person "minutes service to others",

eg,
everybody starts from 0

let say, mr.a come and ask me to repair his computer, then i say, ok, i will do it, but i will charge the amount of minutes uses times 4 or a predefined minutes value, eg. 300 minutes.

so, the harder the task, the multiply values will get higher,

so my global wallet time based account,

me = + 300
mr.a = - 300

whoever reach 0 or negative, well, we can reject them services or stop selling them anything, because they never contribute back to the society.

because, i think, i don't want other people money anymore,
it seems stupid to take your money and i do your shit.

so, corporation would be a combination time value of each person inside that corporation.

like open a joint account. it would be divide equally.


the level of information technology today is capable to produce such system, and i think i want to build such system.

who wanna join.
Post 22 Aug 2012, 06:21
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kalambong



Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 165
kalambong
What is there to stop cheating?

I do not see any mechanism on keeping people honest in your proposal

In the money-based system, cheating still goes on, but since money being a common denominator, the buyer as well as the seller are on a level playing field

So if one side cheats, the other side can retaliate by withholding payment
Post 22 Aug 2012, 09:31
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17247
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revolution
So how do I purchase/buy a loaf of bread? Do I have to invite a baker over to my house to bake it for me?

How can I give a gift of "time" to my friend?

What about in casual work where payment is direct from boss to worker, what does the "time" payment look like? I think payment would have to take a form not too dissimilar from a cheque.

How could shops and stores function? There would need to be some sort of accepted promissory note system used to exchange time credits. Perhaps the banks can print predetermined denominations of time credits and people can exchange them amongst themselves in order to do business. Oh, hey, look, I just reinvented money. And indeed that is how the current money system was started, by promissory notes from the crown used as a proxy for gold and other forms of currency.

I think all you are really doing is using your time store as a proxy for money. In which case we might as well just use money since it already exists and people understand how it works.
Post 22 Aug 2012, 09:47
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
kalambong wrote:

What is there to stop cheating?

hi there kalambong,
the idea of transaction is like below, please share your ideas with me, (much appreciate)

all participants time dollar will be known, that is 100% total transparency.
you key in time dollar user openid, then you know their time dollar.

1. A request a service from Z

2. Z check latest amount time dollar A got, or his history, Z can reject to service A if he doesn't want to.

3. Z quote A, charge 300 minutes for this service

4. A will generate a time dollar code, 4 times md5 = 128 hex number (usable time dollar will get deduct even no payment been made yet)

5. A will give Z first 64 hex number, service engagement

6. Z could input 64 hex number into website, means, he starts working on it.

7. upon completion, A gave the rest 64 hex number to Z, Z input into website and time dollar transfer occurs.

the idea of such system is humanity, better world,
Post 22 Aug 2012, 10:55
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
hi revolution,
i try to explain in my poor english, please forgive me.

what is the difference - dollar vs time dollar.

1. dollar is issue by government, time dollar is not issue by anybody, it is a transfer of time dollar value from individual to another individual.

if A + 300 time dollar, it means someone will need to -300 time dollar.

2. time dollar is total transparency, which means, everybody can check everybody time dollar movement, history.

total account b/f for each user every month zipped downloadable through torrent.

3. if they form a company do a service or product, the profit must be equally divide to those who works or joined that company, this will encourage company to get people who know how to work, or company train them to make them worthy of the profited time dollar.

4. no conversion from world bank currency to time dollar.

well, i need to think more.
but basically, it means 100% total transparency, everybody can view everybody account.
Post 22 Aug 2012, 11:30
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AsmGuru62



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1408
Location: Toronto, Canada
AsmGuru62
Now, all is to be done is hack that all and add to your account +zillion minutes and you'll be all set.
Smile

Jokes aside, cool idea, however - it requres honest humans.
On the other hand, if everyone were honest - we'd not need money at all.
Post 22 Aug 2012, 12:37
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JohnFound



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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JohnFound
I though about such system as well. The key mistake of sleepsleep is the system with "multipliers".
Indeed, everyone need to eat not less than others and if everyone works as long as other, he must be payed the same amount of "minutes".
The education and the skills are not important here.
The essence of this system is to not allow payment more than the work accomplished. This way, no one will be able to steal the labor of others.

Of course these ideas are impossible in this simple form. And of course such an ideas are heretical for the liberal economics world. Wink
Post 22 Aug 2012, 18:12
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r22



Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 805
r22
How would you get around the need to work when your sick, injured or retired (too old to work)? This plan seems to destroy the notion of industrialization and advancement that allows us more leisure time.

What government or dictator wouldn't take a cut of everyone's 'time dollars' in the form of a tax? That giant cloud database with everyone's time dollars and transactions in it needs to be manned by qualified personnel.

What constitutes being productive (working)? Does a student make time dollars for going to class? Does an artist make time dollars while painting a picture of your favorite deity or political figure getting eaten by a dinosaur? I've been pondering an amazing scientific theory/formula/etc for my whole life, how many time dollars is it worth?

Everyone would flock to the tasks with the least risk. Who would be a coal miner getting black lung a mile under the Earth if you could sell ice cream for equal time dollars.

Time cannot be used as a currency. Perhaps resources could be used. Creating a system where communities/countries share resources like food, fuel, minerals, renewable energy, art, technology, research, medicine... in some sort of utopian utilitarian fashion.

A baseline of basic necessities would need to be met (food/water, clothing, shelter, sanitation, health). After the baseline (anything above or beyond it) would be subject to the resource driven economy.
Post 22 Aug 2012, 19:40
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JohnFound



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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JohnFound
r22, as I said, a simple model as this does not work at all. The truth is that the human labor is what should be payed. But there is a big problem with the measurement of the labor - there is no units to measure it. And there is no algorithm able to evaluate it.
The money are one possible way - very inaccurate and easy for cheating. The time system suggested by sleepsleep is also inaccurate, but IMHO harder for cheating. (of course it depends on the implementation and the bugs).
Maybe there is some other method to evaluate the human labor, more accurate and impossible to be cheated.
Post 22 Aug 2012, 21:11
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
the system is flaw, bugs, and got many problems,
thats why we need all the smart guy on this board ( i believe those who are here are really smart )

how is that not possible for us, to come up with a system that could solve some of the great problems face by human?

it is not about money anymore, it is about this life and better way for humanity.

what it takes to put your mind to start thinking?
Post 23 Aug 2012, 02:26
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typedef



Joined: 25 Jul 2010
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typedef
YOU ALL SHOULD SEE THIS MOVIE: it is related to this topic.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1637688/

Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ4-ioY7IyA

Good movie btw.
Post 23 Aug 2012, 04:59
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Picnic



Joined: 05 May 2007
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Picnic
^^Saw it recently, a futuristic (and scary) variation of sleepsleep's idea, in this film for any transaction time units are removed or added to your own life time.
Wealthy people can buy extra time and live for centuries, poor people are dying young.
Post 23 Aug 2012, 05:12
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typedef



Joined: 25 Jul 2010
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typedef
Yeah. But I don't get the idea of using time as a currency. I mean who doesn't have time? Really.

Time is just there and infinite that you can't run out of it. When people say "I have no time" or "I'm running out of time" it's actually them that are running behind time itself.

Time is like a commercial airplane or train. Know when it departs because it won't wait for you.

How would the payment be processed in time ?

Why would you need time from someone else when really all you can do is just take a break from whatever you're doing and you have time?

Who would control the flow and regulate it?

How would you measure it's value?

How would you gain it in the first place (re-generation? )

How would we know whose time is legit? Centralized time?

I'd think of something else other than time. Something inheritable (and physical) that takes sweat or scam / schemes to obtain.
Post 23 Aug 2012, 05:57
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
hi typedef,
please allow me to explain my idea, my english is from mars, it doesn't works sometime.

to measure changes, we need time, it lets us know the duration from frame 1 to frame 2.

to perform any job, from idea to physical, it would cause changes = time.

why i don't want your money,

if you request me to do a job, the job cause my 2 hours, basically, you owe me 2 hours.
maybe Bill owe you 2 hours, you can ask him to pay for you, but by all means, you owe me 2 hours.

let say Steve know how to code, and he wrote a software, this software cause 300 hours.

so, basically, anyone who want to uses Steve software will owe him 300 hours.

such idea will promote automation, or automate package solution, and we prefer such package because it means, less and less human intervention to complete objectives. (eventually human free from doing anything and they can start doing anything they love WITHOUT HARMING OTHERS.)

this will cause more and more people to output solution like these because this is the FASTEST way to earn other people hours.

there is no discrimination here, the idea is, if you are idiot, and lazy, and don't want to learn to solve your own fucking problems, then you will owe other people hours, and you need to pay by working those hours.

but if, steve and several people together, under 1 company, code a software, packaging, marketing and sell it as 300 hours, then every 300 hours earned will be divide equally to everybody inside that company.

there is no such thing as steve get 200 hours, 10 x 10 for his ten employees.

because a company is a group of people who commit together 1 or more idea/ vision / objective.
a table without 1 leg is unstable and we don't call it table.
which means, every person inside a company is what makes it a company.
and time dollar earned MUST BE EQUALLY SHARE.

such idea will make people engage with best people, and try to force idiot to become genius so that they worth of the equal share time dollar.

if people don't want to learn, and love to become idiot, well, the way to proceed is, labour job. clean the street for 3 hours, washing dishes for 3 hours,

and hopefully by doing all those labour jobs, he wakes up and try invent something and through such jobs, he learns different skills.
Post 23 Aug 2012, 13:05
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
the idea of employer and employee is damning crazy and unfair in current days.

somebody pay you 2000 to own your 9 to 5 30 days which is 8 hours times 30 = 240 hours per month.

and that is fucking unfair.
2000 = 800 for food, 300 for travel, 100 saving, 100 for communication expenses, 200 for buying new gadget, 200 to parents, etc.

you do the job, but your employer enjoy more of the profits,

now, the current economy model is,

if you don't want to work under my company, you can go, fucking go find another company, i can hire ANYBODY ANY FUCKING TIME.

which means,

YOU ARE FUCKING STUPID SLAVE.
period.


now,

ask your self,


WHY YOU NEED TO BE SLAVE?



if you use my 2 hours, it means, you need to pay me back 2 hours, i don't want your fucking money.

how is that your dollar equal to my 2 hours?
when you put dollar value to 2 hours, it will turn you into SLAVE mode.
Post 23 Aug 2012, 13:16
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typedef



Joined: 25 Jul 2010
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typedef
Quote:
you do the job, but your employer enjoy more of the profits

His/Her company. His/Her rules. If you got money or the time you say, go start something unique down the street.

So the whole idea behind it is just getting a person to work for you in exchange to an asset (idea/product etc)?

But still I don't get how I would literally give you the time from me to you.

What mode or medium would it take to complete that transaction?

Obviously not physical, since time is intangible. If you are talking about turning someone into your slave then that's already there using money.

Go out in the developing countries and you'll find people doing chores for the rich families and getting paid something for it. That makes sense.

Now go tell a middle class man who needs to support his son in college and that single lady raising her 3 kids and working 2 jobs that currency has changed to time.

This idea would never work.
Post 23 Aug 2012, 14:20
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
the person who join this time based economy means,

1. you could engage with others who need your time, so his time minus and your time adding. (in time bank)

2. if you got 3 hours in account and you want to use it, it means, people who joined the time based economy should fulfill your usage. then the time dollar will shift from your account to his account.

3. everybody is equal. only person who directly benefit from another person, eg. shawn request service 1 hour from john, shawn -, john +

eg. one day, john need a person to help him for 1 hour, john can request and name shawn to help, but shawn doesn't want, it is shawn responsible to find a person (either pay him more time dollar or etc) to help john.

we will count time dollar in minutes.

please forgive my mars english.
Post 23 Aug 2012, 14:40
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sinsi



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sinsi
One hour of my computer skill is not worth one hour of my welding skills.
If I fix Dave's computer, how do I get an equivalent hour from a Marine Biologist like Dave?
Post 23 Aug 2012, 15:01
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
sinsi wrote:
One hour of my computer skill is not worth one hour of my welding skills.
If I fix Dave's computer, how do I get an equivalent hour from a Marine Biologist like Dave?


hi sinsi, i need some "time" to think how to solve such issue.

but the basic is, if you fix Dave's computer and charge him 1 hour, then Dave owe you 1 hour.

if your welding skills is superb, the task to weld took 1 hour, but before engage to such service, you could request the customer to agree on charging 5 hours, if he said ok, then it is ok.

but since this stuff is transparent, so next time when you request help from other experts, they might charge you like this.

is this some sort of inflation? Laughing

but we really need more ideas on such issues.

i was thinking about passing the time dollar with id.
so we could track and see where the generated time dollar end up in whose hands.

so we could know who should fulfill and be responsible for the particular minutes / time dollar.
Post 23 Aug 2012, 15:30
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sinsi



Joined: 10 Aug 2007
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sinsi
But Dave looks after his 4 kids after school, so do the kids owe Dave?
His missus gets back after an hour but spends an hour cooking and serving dinner. Who owes how much?
Post 23 Aug 2012, 15:54
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