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Index > OS Construction > Will we need to develop for ARM now?

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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
Location: web
Dex4u
If your new to OSDev my advice is forget about x86, Arm is your friend as far as OS Dev goes.
Post 03 Aug 2012, 18:13
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newport



Joined: 08 Jun 2012
Posts: 86
Location: Kentucky, USA
newport
Do you believe that x86 may become a thing of the past (not necessarily completely deprecated) in the next decade or so? Could ARM possibily be the next mainstream?
Post 04 Aug 2012, 03:45
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shutdownall



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 518
Location: Munich
shutdownall
XVilka wrote:
You misunderstand. Authorization by signature, you mentioned here, just Secure Boot, which can be disabled, and not yet on the market, while uefi already here more than 2years. Check theme, about uefi driver on this board.

Sorry - you are obviously right.
Post 04 Aug 2012, 11:11
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shutdownall



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 518
Location: Munich
shutdownall
newport wrote:
Do you believe that x86 may become a thing of the past (not necessarily completely deprecated) in the next decade or so? Could ARM possibily be the next mainstream?


I don't think so. ARM architecture was made for portable computer (smartphones & tablets) with focus at power consumption. Could be a candidate for subnotebooks as well but when you need real power, fast data transfers, PCI-e 3.0, USB 3.0, and so on and using fast graphic cards to play games like Max Payne 3 or similar, use of high resolution screens and desktops I wouldn't expect to see an ARM processor in powerful desktop machines.

Okay you never know but in the next years x86 and AMD will be most sold processors for classic PCs.
Post 04 Aug 2012, 11:16
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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
Location: web
Dex4u
shutdownall wrote:
newport wrote:
Do you believe that x86 may become a thing of the past (not necessarily completely deprecated) in the next decade or so? Could ARM possibily be the next mainstream?


I don't think so. ARM architecture was made for portable computer (smartphones & tablets) with focus at power consumption. Could be a candidate for subnotebooks as well but when you need real power, fast data transfers, PCI-e 3.0, USB 3.0, and so on and using fast graphic cards to play games like Max Payne 3 or similar, use of high resolution screens and desktops I wouldn't expect to see an ARM processor in powerful desktop machines.

Okay you never know but in the next years x86 and AMD will be most sold processors for classic PCs.

I disagree, i am not saying x86 will die over night, but in 5 years time most homes will not have a x86 in them, unless its a number of years old.

Example: cutting edge graphic, are no longer possible, because as you move up the scale the difference get less and less but the cost get greater and greater.
So for example in the game sys war, the wii won, that's why M$ needed the Kinect, so the next xbox will not be super high graphic.
See here: http://www.bgr.com/2012/03/22/arm-based-xbox-lite-coming-in-2013-xbox-360-successor-later-insider-claims/

and trust me, there will be no new xbox360, we seen the last of that type.


Last edited by Dex4u on 05 Aug 2012, 15:12; edited 1 time in total
Post 04 Aug 2012, 14:57
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XVilka



Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 42
Location: Russia
XVilka
Futhermore, most x86 CPUs will be with additional ARM cores (at least AMD, but i think Intel too) http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/13/amd-arm-security/
Post 04 Aug 2012, 19:13
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shutdownall



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 518
Location: Munich
shutdownall
Dex4u wrote:

I disagree, i am not saying x86 will die over night, but in 5 years time most homes will not have a x86 in them, unless its a number of years old.

I am not talking about kidding home user spending the whole day in facebook or youtube.
It may be, that ARM is available in tablets and smartphones but you won't see them in server hardware or most office computers. Maybe for secretaries only. Razz

Look at this list and try to find any supercomputer based on ARM
http://i.top500.org/sublist
Rolling Eyes
Post 05 Aug 2012, 17:58
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shutdownall



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
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shutdownall
XVilka wrote:
Futhermore, most x86 CPUs will be with additional ARM cores (at least AMD, but i think Intel too) http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/13/amd-arm-security/


What ?
MOST ???
This was just one board presented, what you guess on how much pieces we are talking ?

Look here, market shares from IDC.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20120316164155_Intel_Continues_to_Dominate_But_AMD_Managed_to_Slightly_Gain_CPU_Market_Share_in_2011_IDC.html

Arm is not listed in the PC market at all, we are talking about 99,9% divorced in INTEL and AMD.

It's one point what people hope to will be in the future, another the reality.
Of course not all CPU's from Intel are x86 but we are not talking of ARM in this market, not a little little bit. Wink
Post 05 Aug 2012, 18:13
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XVilka



Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 42
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XVilka
You misunderstand again. ARM will be embedded in CPU crystal, like e.g. memory controller/northbridge stuff/gpu already. So x86 will be more SoC again.
Post 06 Aug 2012, 07:41
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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
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Dex4u
shutdownall wrote:
Dex4u wrote:

I disagree, i am not saying x86 will die over night, but in 5 years time most homes will not have a x86 in them, unless its a number of years old.

I am not talking about kidding home user spending the whole day in facebook or youtube.
It may be, that ARM is available in tablets and smartphones but you won't see them in server hardware or most office computers. Maybe for secretaries only. Razz

Look at this list and try to find any supercomputer based on ARM
http://i.top500.org/sublist
Rolling Eyes


You seem to have mist the point of this topic, we are talking hobby OS Dev's Wink.
No one is going to test your hobby OS on a supper computer or main server.
How many home will need a supper computer ?.
Post 06 Aug 2012, 13:03
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smiddy



Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 559
smiddy
There are plenty of smart phones out there that could use a good OS. Smile
Post 07 Aug 2012, 02:02
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17639
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
smiddy wrote:
There are plenty of smart phones out there that could use a good OS. Smile
Indeed. It is such a pity that almost all of them are locked down. For your own "protection and security" of course.
Post 07 Aug 2012, 02:18
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shutdownall



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
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shutdownall
XVilka wrote:
You misunderstand again. ARM will be embedded in CPU crystal, like e.g. memory controller/northbridge stuff/gpu already. So x86 will be more SoC again.


Says who ? Cool
You want to say Intel will licence ARM technology for all of their CPU's (or most) ?
Why should they do that ?
They have the power to introduce own concepts of powerspare concepts.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/computers/intel-we-have-arm-license-no-plans-to-use-it/5845


And of course AMD is out of plan, they use every straw they can get now.
I did understand that AMD is planning to use a SoC with an ARM cpu and AMD cpu.
But of how many pieces we are talking here ? What market share ?
1% or 2% ?
And this will be the end of Intel's dominating period in the PC market ?

I don't think so. Rolling Eyes
Post 07 Aug 2012, 11:26
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shutdownall



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
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shutdownall
Dex4u wrote:

You seem to have mist the point of this topic, we are talking hobby OS Dev's Wink.
No one is going to test your hobby OS on a supper computer or main server.
How many home will need a supper computer ?.


I did not miss, this was just an example.
Why the hell should the hobby OSes break the domination of Intel in the PC market ?
I didn't catch that point. Very Happy
Regarding your posting:
Quote:
i am not saying x86 will die over night, but in 5 years time most homes will not have a x86 in them, unless its a number of years old.


And if anyone develop a new hobby OS - why should he avoid to run this on a normal PC ? As there are billion of machines running somewhere. Wink
Post 07 Aug 2012, 12:00
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JohnFound



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 3502
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JohnFound
shutdownall wrote:
Why the hell should the hobby OSes break the domination of Intel in the PC market ?
I didn't catch that point. Very Happy


There is an old children's song (from a great Bulgarian TV movie) that says:

Quote:
A sailor wants to be
a captain - brave captain.
The captain wants to be
Magellan - at least Magellan.


Sorry for the bad translation, but the idea is clear, I hope.

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Post 07 Aug 2012, 12:55
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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
Location: web
Dex4u
shutdownall wrote:
Dex4u wrote:

You seem to have mist the point of this topic, we are talking hobby OS Dev's Wink.
No one is going to test your hobby OS on a supper computer or main server.
How many home will need a supper computer ?.


I did not miss, this was just an example.
Why the hell should the hobby OSes break the domination of Intel in the PC market ?
I didn't catch that point. Very Happy
Regarding your posting:
Quote:
i am not saying x86 will die over night, but in 5 years time most homes will not have a x86 in them, unless its a number of years old.


And if anyone develop a new hobby OS - why should he avoid to run this on a normal PC ? As there are billion of machines running somewhere. Wink

The ? is, why have OS Dev's been mostly coding x86 OS's ?.
The answer is nearly every home as one, if in the coming years, theres more ARM device that are cheap, and more Dev info becomes available on bare metal coding, at the same time x86 are more locked.
That's why new OS Dev's should code for Arm.
I mean my x86 OS is very little used, but i have over 1000 downloads in a month for my Arm OS.
Post 07 Aug 2012, 14:50
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XVilka



Joined: 04 May 2011
Posts: 42
Location: Russia
XVilka
Btw, sorry for offtop, Dex4u: you need to try bunch of Allwinner A10 boards, much better than raspberry pi.

shutdownall: because, just wait a year or so... Intel already have embedded uC - ARCtangent A4/A5, it is cheap, but can't handle all proposed stuff, while ARM looks very good for that.
Post 07 Aug 2012, 19:43
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4240
Location: 2018
edfed
this topic looks more like a trade discution about what to bet on in the future...

in my opinion, the future will be universal assembly language, where every cpu will respect an ISO instruction encoding(decided arbitrary by some suiss consortium) , and the manufacturers will fight on the circuits and algorithms inside their CPU to be the best.

that's the rude law of the nature.
Post 07 Aug 2012, 22:39
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i-don



Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 66
i-don
It will never happened.

If ARM sis going to become full specs like x86 PCs, they had to went through a process of re-inventing the wheel again and wasting time and resources.

If you want to promote making hobby firmware for ARM, make installation process as simple as possible to laymen users deploying the firmware/OS like on a PC. Then you could attract more interest in such projects.

Since nowadays is an object oriented era, developers and users focus in compiling the new ideas from bunch of ready made modules/objects than rebuilding/rewriting the same low level components and properties over and over again by different people.
Post 08 Aug 2012, 03:38
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
i got a question,

what actually ARM could do, but x86 couldn't do?

and what x86 could do, but ARM couldn't do?
Post 08 Aug 2012, 04:53
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