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Author
typedef

Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 2913
Location: 0x77760000
typedef
All the people here are abnormal. Because they haven't been to the moon like me.
29 May 2012, 21:43
AsmGuru62

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1408
AsmGuru62
I am sure if we sum up all people on Earth and divide the result - we'll get some certain number and that would be normal in my book of science.
30 May 2012, 00:11
typedef

Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 2913
Location: 0x77760000
typedef
AsmGuru62 wrote:
I am sure if we sum up all people on Earth and divide the result - we'll get some certain number and that would be normal in my book of science.

Your sentence is abnormal. Here's why:

You start with we and then end with my book of science.

Your normal book of science is not the same as mine or someone else's that's included in that "we" of yours, and so it only pertains to your normality.

Therefore, your sentence is abnormal to me, making your normality also abnormal in the same context.
30 May 2012, 01:13
Tyler

Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1216
Location: NC, USA
Tyler
revolution wrote:
AsmGuru62 wrote:
Statistical human height is about 170 cm.
Which race? Which gender? Which age? If someone is 180cm in height are they abnormal? If someone is 172cm in height are they abnormal? If someone is 170.0001cm in height are they abnormal?
That's the idea behind statistical deviations -- to determine how weird or different something is.

I would say 3 standard deviations from the mode is abnormal. Estimating from the data on Wolfram Alpha (and estimating about what 3 std deviations away from normal would be, as it isn't listed on the x-axis), that would mean that 4'7" and 6'6" or 140cm and 200cm are abnormal. Assuming that it is rare for one to remove their genitals (at least less than 1 in 100), then the guy who had himself castrated would also be considered abnormal by this definition.

As for justifying the use of 3 std deviations: If 2 is enough to determine someone is smarter than enough of the population to call them a genius (which is arguably an abnormality), then 3 is definitely an abnormality. Along with the fact that retarded-ness, or an IQ of 80, is only -1.3, you can either accept that 3 is abnormal or argue that retarded-ness is normal. Your pick. Just don't use the American populace, as I'd probably agree that retarded-ness is the norm here.
30 May 2012, 02:20
revolution
When all else fails, read the source

Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17248
revolution
Tyler: AsmGuru62 claimed that abnormalness is easily and clearly defined. Your defence here is very wishy-washy and vague. Some people say it is this, some say it is that, others something else completely. That is nothing like clear and certain, it is subjective.
30 May 2012, 02:51
sleepsleep

Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8867
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sleepsleep
tyler,
maybe statistic is the best method to determine and measure,
30 May 2012, 05:48
typedef

Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 2913
Location: 0x77760000
typedef
sleepsleep wrote:
tyler,
maybe statistic is the best method to determine and measure,

statistics will overtime produce either averages (similarity or relativity) or difference which is still subjective among individuals/groups etc.
30 May 2012, 09:28
ManOfSteel

Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
revolution wrote:

What is the "normal" height for a human?
[...]
Which race? Which gender? Which age? If someone is 180cm in height are they abnormal? If someone is 172cm in height are they abnormal? If someone is 170.0001cm in height are they abnormal?

Mathematically speaking, when you have a "probability distribution", you have a mean value, and when you have a mean you must have a range of values that are by definition Normal, and extreme values that are by definition exceptional and therefore... non-Normal.

Reproduction is a function of *all* life. Cutting off genitals prevents it so it's abnormal. Infertile people are also abnormal; and please do understand that I'm not making any moral judgment here or trying to be condescending! It's just how it is. If the majority of individuals (that previously made the Normal) start cutting off their genitals or become infertile (i.e. they deviate from the Normal), the population will be decimated, the gene pool will deteriorate, and genetic anomalies will increase exponentially among the decreasing number of individuals that still reproduce, ultimately leading to the extinction of the entire population.

If the Normal consisted of people like Mao Sugiyama, life wouldn't exist in the universe.

Inagawa wrote:
For a midget, every other person is abnormal in height. Same for a very tall person. What about asians? They are smaller than normal, are they abnormal? For them, we are the abnormal ones, etc.

So a 2.30 m tall guy thinks he's normal and everyone else is a midget? No offense to you or to 2.30 m tall people, but I don't buy that they think they're normal nor that they think others aren't.
If I'm a well-nourished able-bodied male living in the Middle-ages I'm perfectly normal if I'm 1.4m tall. Teleport me to the 21st century and I'm suddenly a dwarf.

For a specific population (of a specific gender, at a specific time and location) that has a mean height of, say, 1.75 m and a range of Normal values around it - e.g. 1.65m-1.85m - anyone who is not within range is deviating from the Normal. The more extreme, the more non-Normal. And like I said, I'm not making any moral judgment.
There's a reason for such an anomaly - use of growth hormones during childhood, endocrine imbalance, etc.

So normally, height values move within a very specific range and don't deviate much. On the other hand (and to go back to the main subject), is there any place, in the known universe, where it's normal for life to make itself incapable of reproducing, eh?

Inagawa wrote:
Unless you exactly specify the conditions for which a given thing is normal or abnormal, it is meaningless.

1. Crack any dictionary and look up the words. They're crystal clear and whatever the discipline/science, the definitions will be very similar.
2. Normal and abnormal behaviors have been encouraged/enforced by all human populations from the start. Anyone who deviates from social norms and values becomes a pariah.
3. Refer to the probability distribution and Normal law for the purely mathematical aspect.
30 May 2012, 20:57
typedef

Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 2913
Location: 0x77760000
typedef
ManOfSteel wrote:

Infertile people are also abnormal

This had me laughing. What a mean person you are.
30 May 2012, 21:05
Inagawa

Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 153
Inagawa
ManOfSteel:

You missed the point in such a big way it's not even funny. Think again on the topic of human height.
30 May 2012, 21:32
Enko

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Mar del Plata
Enko
typedef wrote:
ManOfSteel wrote:

Infertile people are also abnormal

This had me laughing. What a mean person you are.

Quote:

and please do understand that I'm not making any moral judgment here or trying to be condescending!

I think no, he is a "man of steal".

Superman would be normal or abnormal?
You can´t put him inside the normal statistics becouse he isn´t human. He doesn´t belong to the category of human, thus, if you put him as he where human, he would create a branch in the curve. (talking about strength)

So he would be abnormal as human, of course, he isn´t human. But still, he is a normal kriptonian.

What about vasectomy as birth control. If you have a country with too much over population, this practice would be normal? But the person wich perform it, wouldn´t be normal.
30 May 2012, 21:37
ManOfSteel

Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
typedef wrote:
ManOfSteel wrote:
Infertile people are also abnormal
This had me laughing. What a mean person you are.

LOL, typedef, thanks for quoting out of context.
As the Interwebs saying goes: "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted or taken out of context and used against you"

Inagawa wrote:
You missed the point in such a big way it's not even funny. Think again on the topic of human height.

No Inagawa, it's you who has missed the ENTIRE POINT and have lost all your playing cards.

The only way you could prove me wrong is to show me a single instance in human history where it was normal, for a statistically significant (i.e. not like eunuchs for instance) portion of a given population, to permanently and irreversibly ablate the reproductive systems of its individuals.

You would've proven that 1) it's socially acceptable to do that (i.e. it's in accordance to accepted and enforced norms and values and ingrained in the culture) and 2) the majority of individuals does it all the time.

I bet you can't... therefore Mao Sugiyama, and the *minority* that does things like him, is not normal... Q.E.D.
31 May 2012, 07:18
revolution
When all else fails, read the source

Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17248
revolution
Eunuchs were a common thing in many cultures around the world (and still are in some places). It was considered normal for those societies to have eunuchs around. You can't quote statistics for level of significance because everyone has a different opinion about what constitutes normal or not normal.
31 May 2012, 11:39
Enko

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Mar del Plata
Enko
Of course its normal in many cultures to have eunuchs, as it is normal tu have dwarfs, paralitics, blinds, deaphs, etc.... Because they form part of the deviation. Adn statisticaly, they could be quantified on a time line.
And it should be preaty constant percentage.
but all this doesn't convert them to normal.

Its the same thing as the vasectomy, its a normal practice, but are you a normal human after that?
31 May 2012, 12:55
revolution
When all else fails, read the source

Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17248
revolution
Either everyone is normal or no one is normal.

Everyone has some thing that is unique to them in some way. If we go around trying to find something "not normal" in someone then we will find something if we look hard enough. So are you saying everyone is not normal?

Are assembly programmers not normal? I would expect they form a statistically small percentage of the world.
31 May 2012, 13:15
AsmGuru62

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1408
AsmGuru62
Good point about Assembly coders -- there are not many left.
We all abnormal in that respect!
31 May 2012, 15:59
Enko

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Mar del Plata
Enko
But what if we talking about people who reverse malware... I think lots of them know assembly, so not knowing assembly in that place is not being normal.

Being a specialist makes you not normal?
31 May 2012, 16:04
ManOfSteel

Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
Enko wrote:
Its the same thing as the vasectomy, its a normal practice, but are you a normal human after that?

You're right, but at least vasectomy is reversible so it's a birth control method no more abnormal than, say, a IUD.

On the other hand, cutting off the entire reproductive system is irreversible, especially when he has just served it to deranged cannibals... I mean "gourmets".
And cutting off most of the urethra is completely crazy!!! He must be having lotsa fun inserting a hose and tapping his bladder every time he wants to take a leak, eww!

--8<--

revolution wrote:
Eunuchs were a common thing in many cultures around the world (and still are in some places).

They don't even constitute a significant *minority*. They exist/ed solely as domestic/harem slaves, castrato singers and for religious reasons in civilizations that, for example, have gender identities other than male and female (e.g. neutral, intersex).

The largest eunuch population is probably in India, a country with one of the most rigid social class/caste systems. And even there it's 2,000,000 among a population of 1,200,000,000!

Let's go back to the main topic: Is it considered normal and is it a widespread practice in *contemporary Japan*? No.

revolution wrote:
You can't quote statistics for level of significance because everyone has a different opinion about what constitutes normal or not normal.

Sure I can. Nothing beats mathematics when it comes to abstraction and objectivity.
You want the subjectivity of opinions? Fine, I'll ask you for the umpteenth time: is the full ablation of the reproductive and urinary systems (outside cancer treatment) considered normal and is it a widespread practice anywhere in the modern world?

revolution wrote:
Are assembly programmers not normal? I would expect they form a statistically small percentage of the world.

Sure, sure. Go ahead, compare the intentional ablation of the reproductive and urinary systems to someone's choice of programming language! You got me laughing IRL, seriously.

I'm sure you know how important assembly is in understanding the basics of how computers/chips work, how some things are simply impossible to do with any other language, how every higher-level compiler eventually converts everything into assembly, etc.
And "quite a few" computer science/engineering universities still include at least one assembly course in their curriculum.

Oh and you also have to take into consideration consequences: if the majority of people cut their genitals off or, say, have Down syndrome, then that species is DOOMED and will be gone veeery soon. If the majority of people are assembly programmers or, say, left-handed, then... nothing, BIG FRACKING DEAL!!!
31 May 2012, 18:24
Inagawa

Joined: 24 Mar 2012
Posts: 153
Inagawa
What has a species being doomed to do with normality and abnormality? A species, like everything, has only a limited life. The fact that there will come a time, when humanity is extinct, is normal. It's completely normal for a species to go extinct. You're waving this "doomed" card like an argument for why it's wrong.

Edit: By the way, you're still bringing math into something that cannot be expressed with math on a meaningful scale. For the umpteenth time, normality and abnormality is entirely individual and differs from person to person. You can make a statistics and mark the deviation from the norm as abnormal, but that will only reflect the matter from your perspective of quantity.
31 May 2012, 19:16
Enko

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Mar del Plata
Enko
If its normal to cut your own genitalia, why don't you just simply cut yours?

-It's OK, I'm still a normal person.

Just compare the behavior of a normal cat and a castrated cat. Theres a huge diference in the character.

And yes, you can express it with math.

Invite your friends at your home for dinner. 99 friends. Cut your genetalia, coock it, make them it it. Then ask how it was, did the enjoy it. Then explaint what they eated.

And only after that, tell how many of them are still your friends.

The math part. (100 friends, 1 with no genetalia... who is the abnormal, the 99 left?)

-Don't worry guys, I can still pee standing using a pipe.
31 May 2012, 20:36
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