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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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YONG
I don't bother to waste any more of my time on such philosophical mumbo jumbo.

BTW, it should have been "22nd" instead of "22th". I am sure that my remark is true and REAL!

Wink
Post 22 Sep 2016, 04:45
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
best way to insert "true and REAL!" Laughing

thank you for the "correct"ion,
Post 22 Sep 2016, 06:39
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
28th September 2016

- today is a good day, after raining everything smell so fresh outside

- now rape, the root cause, refer to into the forest 2015

- when one force his or her unwelcome actions, desires onto others, that is rape

- it could be physical and non-physical, both are hurting the victims who got no defense power to prevent your actions or desires

- we play with words like, bully, rape, force, cheat, etc but the whole root cause of action is the lack of humanity towards other human

- and people worship the 45 to 50 years old cult bastard who rape a 8 to 12 years old kid

- you could see how far human could gone crazy, lunatic, bully, unreasonable, fuck up, etc

- people deny everything and always trying to justify and find excuses regarding how much impact the hurts, the cruel they did to others

- they quantify and compare, maybe it is not so hurt after all,

- true is changes causes changes,

- we could prevent a lot of unnecessary destructive changes being created, eg, revenge,

- people might probably regret and sorry for what they did, but the destruction are done, no way to reverse, hatred are seeded

- this point to an interesting question, should you hate, or should you no hate?

- your hate seeded from total disagreement with something

- the person in the film want to kill the rapist,

- could our hatred really gone if we terminate the source that cause our hatred?

- maybe we shouldn't keep on seeking forgiveness, we should play more attention and extra careful with our decisions, actions, desires and etc,

- people could do something extremely horrible to you that you never ever will forgive,

- could we disregard whatever that happened before and walk like everything is new, let go?

- it is never easy, and how logical is to behave like that?

- does animal hate?

- maybe humanity is a kin to riding bicycle, could you change the bicycle tire while riding down the hill?
Post 28 Sep 2016, 01:08
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
11th October 2016

- less than 1 month, we will have election that will affects the whole countries on earth

- or we have martial law declared and obama going 3rd terms

- or we got one of the candidate assassinated?

- forget about the bs, we will know in less than 1 month

- and we got more and more leaked emails

- or we see fireworks soon?

- http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/552491/asteroids-heading-towards-Earth-NASA-scientists-Project-Juno-space-robotic-mission

- Panic as more than ONE THOUSAND asteroids head towards Earth

- NASA has begged for help after discovering more than 1,000 asteroids heading in our direction on an almost unstoppable path.
Post 11 Oct 2016, 16:02
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
12th October 2016

- dreaming there was bomb threats in a mall, nearby my area

- the whole scene look so dark, the moment i am aware, there were nobody else, they move out already

- i went to first floor, through some tiny windows holes, i saw many rioters out there

- switch on my handheld tablet, online news claimed rioters installed bombs in several crowded malls in order to negotiate with authority

- a friend of mine, yy behaves kinda weird, not really sure if he is grouped with those rioters

- then i heard a phone call ringtone,

- pretty wasted, otherwise i could keep on dreaming and enjoy the realistic dream scene or real scene
Post 12 Oct 2016, 02:55
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
- Panic as more than ONE THOUSAND asteroids head towards Earth
Why?

The Earth is constantly hit by alien objects. Life always finds a way to bounce back from catastrophic events.

Quote:
Every day, Earth is bombarded with more than 100 tons of dust and sand-sized particles.

About once a year, an automobile-sized asteroid hits Earth's atmosphere, creates an impressive fireball, and burns up before reaching the surface.

Every 2,000 years or so, a meteoroid the size of a football field hits Earth and causes significant damage to the area.

Only once every few million years, an object large enough to threaten Earth's civilization comes along. Impact craters on Earth, the moon and other planetary bodies are evidence of these occurrences.
Refer to:
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/asteroids/overview/fastfacts.html

Wink
Post 13 Oct 2016, 01:33
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ford



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 102
ford
sleepsleep wrote:
22th September 2016

- i move on because i aware, what is real or not is based on your own perception, what is real in this second might become so unreal in the next moment

- since real functions exactly like the word good and bad, and changes cause more changes, what is good might cause ultimate bad later,

- it just impossible to have a clear definition on perception, what real might be a group of, a dozen of unreal inside, then what is real then?

- and perception depend on where you look and view, it never the same,

- if you guys still don't understand this real stuff, maybe i am too dumb to explain to smart guys/gals like you all, i rest my case.


So, my perspective on "real" or "truth" may deviate slightly from yours. First, I personally think that there is an objective reality that exists whether or not anyone chooses to believe that it does. From an academic perspective, even if that reality does not exist, the illusion is all I have and therefore debating that particularly point isn't all too interesting to me. I do, however, agree with your statement on the temporal nature of truth. Anything that exists does so for only a moment, because everything that exists does so within a cause and effect web that is constantly changing.

Beyond that, while I agree that "good" and "bad" do not really exist, I think we would disagree on the reason. Ideas do not exist. Aggregates do not exist. Abstractions do not exist. For example, I can say that a chair exists. Indeed, there are objects that humans call chairs. This is true. There is not, however, a single perfect representation of a chair. So, the abstraction of chair does not really exist in any tangible way. sleepsleep exists. Much like chair, however, "person" or "people" or "human" wouldn't be accurate. There is no perfect instantiation of those concepts. Those concepts do not exist outside of the mind, which is how I separate that which is real from that which isn't. I first ask myself whether or not the idea has any representation outside of my own mind. I then ask myself whether or not that representation is a one-to-one with the idea. If not, it may be an abstraction, an aggregate, or an idea. If it is an abstraction, it will be something like chair or person. The symbol we use verbally and mentally is useful as a representation but is ultimately inaccurate and doesn't truly exist. If it is an aggregate, it is an abstraction made up of other abstractions, and it is likely completely invalid. This is something like "government" or "American" or "simian" or "News". If it is an idea, that would be something like "running". This is a symbol that represents something that is merely a state of being for something that exists. An idea could also be something like "good" which is rather complex, and merely describes a state of being within the mind.

As for perception, it is true that our ability to observe and experience is limited, but again, it's all we have to work with.

_________________
Everything is absurd.
Post 14 Oct 2016, 05:19
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
hi ford, welcome to this thread Wink

ford wrote:
First, I personally think that there is an objective reality that exists whether or not anyone chooses to believe that it does.


let us assume an objective reality did exists, but how are we going to confirm that? i would dare to say it is near impossible to confirm such "belief"

same to the idea of "truth", assume there is a real and exact truth of an event, person, humankind history, etc, but i see no way to confirm whatever "stories or version of truth" if an entity or group of entities bring to me.

constantly changing might be the natural state of everything, so everything change might be the truth that always true and real forever Very Happy

i think i want to elaborate more about "good" and "bad",
people invented words and languages as a medium, symbol to transfer and record "thoughts" and "changes"

good/bad is a judgement(output) formed through analyzing or without analyzing (processing) the whatever that caused judgment (input)

people could pass any kind of judgement towards nearly everything, judgement is there, inside their mind, probably real in term of their forming and existence inside the mind,

of course, all these real or not depend on which levels or layers one look,

is the judgement accurate? correct? valid?
probably not because we use limited experiences, exposures, knowledge etc to judge something which is bigger, be it human, event, or object.

size causes insignificant,

ford wrote:
This is true. There is not, however, a single perfect representation of a chair.

i agree with you,
human limited language, limited definition, perhaps we are wrong to think it is possible to use language to convey thoughts,

ford wrote:
As for perception, it is true that our ability to observe and experience is limited, but again, it's all we have to work with.

perhaps this is the only fun a conscious could experience. Cool
Post 14 Oct 2016, 12:20
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
YONG wrote:
Can you?

Given your stance that nothing is real, how can you ever show that something is real?

That sounds like a paradox to me.

Maybe all these discussions are not real. I am just wasting my time! Mad

Wink
Well you have to define "real". What is real to you?

But this doesn't matter for logic. Logic and mathematics exist without a physical world at all, because they are concepts. Math can even extend hypothetical physics that will never happen in the known Universe, for example.

For example, you don't need to travel all the way to Alpha Centauri to be able to do calculations on the trajectory. You can do those calculations even on "what if" scenarios that the Universe will never experience.

1+1 = 2, regardless of the laws of physics or anything else existing, because it is a concept. Same with logical operations. Sure, addition itself is defined by humans, and so are numbers, but the thing it refers to (that is, adding 1 to 1 makes it 2) is universal to everything, whether it exists or not. There's even abstract math that deals with stuff having zero practical relevance, it's a simple extension of this concept. You don't have to prove that anything is "real" to do math operations at all (or logic).


Now back to the "real" argument.

Does it matter if something is universally, absolutely "real", whatever your definition? Imagine we're in a computer simulation (which I highly believe myself) like the Matrix. So everything we see/do is just "virtual" when looking at it from an outside perspective. Does that mean it's not real?

If that's your definition, let me ask you why does it even matter? You see a criminal with a gun shooting people, they die. Does the fact that those people are virtual help any argument you have here? Those people would still show "virtual feelings", they'd still breathe "Virtual air" and still exist with "virtual human rights".

I fail to see how proving that nothing is real invalidates any argument here. Arguments related to this world, obviously. Even if it's not absolutely real, stuff still happens, so arguments can be used in respect to it (this world).

BTW these discussions are definitely "real". No matter if you're dreaming or hallucinating them, they definitely affect your brain. The fact you're even conscious of "wasting time" on replying to them or reading proves that they are real. If they weren't real they wouldn't be able to affect you at all.
Post 15 Oct 2016, 14:01
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
16th October 2016

- very fast, we are getting to the end of 2016 already

- just want to share a little bit of discovery

- i assume signals, the medium that hold whatever that cause changes

- there are signals that we prefer and signals that we dislike, usually pleasure and pain

- one of the i function is to decide which signals i prefer based on its own memory and calculation etc

- our current processor result exact output on similar input, so our next evolve in computer microprocessor is to design processor which is unique and output differently even with similar input, but still usable Laughing

- the uniqueness is like how everybody body is different, the internal organs maintain a common specification overall, but different and unique

- /me heard about intel wants to implement ai inside microprocessor yesterday, a nice step

- i is greater than to decide what to prefer and what to skip, i awareness, i itself is a concept, is like a concept comes to live by aware that it is a concept

- i is like eip / rip register, but i is more than that

- our next instructions have weight on them, they are queued by weight, they could be inside focus or non-focus group

- i could sit the whole day and pondering why i aware i, Laughing

- what actually could trigger a concept to become aware? eg. a digital camera, how to let a digital camera aware?

- is every animals and insects aware about themselves if to show them a mirror (which adjusted to their sensor)?

- what kind of growth or evolution to achieve conscious? like how a new born child become conscious? memory might be the answer

- because the operating system and programs are formed by memories inside the hard disk, maybe with some pseudo code to maintain a general specification

- i is quite near to i, but to understand i, i seems so far almost like a magic

- clarke's three laws - 3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Post 15 Oct 2016, 21:03
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
But this doesn't matter for logic.
Really?

What makes you think logic applies in the "unreal" dimension?

Like revolution, you just assume that it does.

Wink


Last edited by YONG on 17 Oct 2016, 01:43; edited 1 time in total
Post 16 Oct 2016, 04:04
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
- is every animals and insects aware about themselves if to show them a mirror (which adjusted to their sensor)?
Refer to:

http://www.animalcognition.org/2015/04/15/list-of-animals-that-have-passed-the-mirror-test/

https://www.quora.com/How-many-neurons-are-needed-to-create-a-conscious-entity

Wink
Post 16 Oct 2016, 04:15
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
YONG wrote:
Really?

What makes you think logic applies the "unreal" dimension?

Like revolution, you just assume that it does.

Wink
Well, logic is a concept, it doesn't have to "apply" to exist. Math (and logic) exist without physics or any other empirical/practical science.

Physics and engineering are applied mathematics -- but math exists independently of them. And math works even if the laws of the Universe are completely different. Even if the Universe is not even describable by math, in that case we'd simply not have physics, but math will still be there, because it's a concept.

Indeed, we can even "extend" our physics with it to "unreal" things (because we described our empirical data/observations with math, you're right that it does not mean that the Universe actually does follow this math, but it does not have to in order for math to exist).

Now, it does not make them real by any means there, which is where we agree. But they still exist, because they're concepts. I'm strictly talking about math that is not "applied" like you said (same with logic).

For instance, we can imagine completely arbitrary dimensions and such with math and logic. We can even create computer simulations for them (obviously the results will be just numbers). They obviously aren't real yet they are very possible because they are based on concepts.

Now, the representation of a number is not what matters either. It's made of pixels, voltages, paper ink or whatever, but that's beside the point. A number is a concept and those are just means of expressing to us that concept and information. A number has no "matter" by itself.

Logic is in same way.


More info if you are really interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_mathematics
Post 16 Oct 2016, 17:50
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
logic is a concept, it doesn't have to "apply" to exist. ... we can even "extend" our physics with it to "unreal" things ...
I am not talking about whether the notion of logic exists or not. Nor am I ruling out the option that we may extend our math & physics to other unknown dimensions. My question is simple: How do we know that logic and/or whatever extensions of math/physics would/could actually apply in such unknown dimensions?

Wink
Post 17 Oct 2016, 01:59
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
17th October 2016

- numbers are symbol, to bring out concept, usually to measure

- measurement could only precise up to the level you measure

- there are infinity between 0 and 1, infinity too between 0.1 and 0.2

-

- our school education system keep on promotes "bigger i" where a better humanity education system should promotes "bigger us / bigger we"

- what is the last time you are taught in how to co-operate with others?

- why you have individual test? if this world is about living in community? not staying alone in wild jungle doing everything by yourself

- there are reasons why they shove us these systems

-

- if you see how a seed turns into a plant, it is absorbing stuffs around it, converting them to be something useful to itself

- if we use this concept to operating system equal soil, seed equal programs raw algorithm, we might could have programs that grow
Post 17 Oct 2016, 06:31
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
- if we use this concept to operating system equal soil, seed equal programs raw algorithm, we might could have programs that grow
A learning computer/system/program could be very dangerous. Many science fiction movies have already explored such an idea -- most of them do not have a happy ending.

Wink
Post 17 Oct 2016, 09:49
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
YONG wrote:
sleepsleep wrote:
- if we use this concept to operating system equal soil, seed equal programs raw algorithm, we might could have programs that grow
A learning computer/system/program could be very dangerous. Many science fiction movies have already explored such an idea -- most of them do not have a happy ending.

Wink


you and i gonna write a novel that reverse that belief Laughing not sure if you are interested or not Wink

i actually got sci-fi ideas that not yet in the mainstream,
Post 18 Oct 2016, 06:33
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
18th October 2016

- you draw what you imagine in mind or you let your imagination decided by whatever your hands draw and believe that is what you imagine?

- it is very hard to train this mind, memory and output result into your mind screen and remain there without changes

- but i believe this is the next evolution we human gonna take, to control your own mind

- next human evolution also consists of replay whatever brain signals that we prefer freely

- if you look into dream, this set of virtual real-lity is already there, it is possible in term of techinal, brain architecture, brain processing etc

- if you are in dream, maybe your conscious somehow will aware you are in dream (maybe there is a switch that we on to prevent us trapped inside our own dream)

- if you look at our current reality, maybe we already trapped inside dream, we want it to become so immersive, we just set how long we could stay, 80 years or etc and we off the switch that let us aware we are inside our own dream.

- we could also be fugitives or criminals, lost our dear one, sad etc, temporarily want to forget everything and start fresh with 0 memory, we off our switch and run our dream

- train our playback function directly onto our input sensors, next human evolution.
Post 18 Oct 2016, 06:57
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
you and i gonna write a novel that reverse that belief Laughing not sure if you are interested or not Wink
In fact, I am reviewing/revising the second draft of my very first science fiction novel, which has a word count of around 90,000. I am having a hard time to deal with plot inconsistency right now. Hope that I can fix it.

If you happen to know some small/startup (yet trustworthy!) publishers that may be willing to give a nobody's silly story a try, let me know via p.m.

Thanks in advance!

Wink
Post 18 Oct 2016, 07:48
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
i hope sleepsleep is one of your "main character" inside your very first science fiction novel,

i think i could help with your plot inconsistency, how about a summarize of what actually happening in that 90,000 words in maybe 200 words? Very Happy
Post 18 Oct 2016, 14:18
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