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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17473
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revolution
YONG wrote:
Thank you very much for falling into the trap. Yeah, the constructed conversation was a bait.

Given that you yourself cannot say for sure what you perceive is real, how can you show that the prerequisite in your argument is real, or true?

At the end of the day, your logic just crumples. Twisted Evil
Thanks for your effort. But you appear to be creating strawmen, or have some misunderstanding about what was intended, or I explained myself badly as usual. I never stated that anything that I perceive is real, or that it requires any prerequisite of anything. In fact I said the opposite, that what I (and all of us) perceive is not what is really out there. We just don't know what is really out there, that was the whole point actually. We receive a filtered version of some of the available information from some part of the whole for some portion of the time. But at the end of the day I still want to live, so rather than try to contemplate all the countless bajillions of quantum interactions required for every single minor muscle movement that it requires for me to stay alive, I prefer to simply think of it as raising my cup and taking a sip.
Post 19 Sep 2016, 09:56
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
life,

50歲王祖賢近照曝光!模樣讓大家都一言難盡...
http://www.daliulian.net/cat18/node1202110
Image
Post 19 Sep 2016, 12:27
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
YONG wrote:
sleepsleep wrote:
- how many years we took to realize some serious concepts, maybe 20 years and more,
It takes a boy 30 years to become a man, and a further 10 years to fully understand the meaning of life.

三十而立。四十而不惑。

Wink


i would interpret it as,

- capable to reach independence in life, lifestyle, whether in financial, thoughts, judgement, etc during age of 30, capable to survive alone,

- 惑 is confused, puzzled,

- it mentioned during the age of 40, man should have no more confusion, puzzle

- it think he means a clear definition of concept, eg, time, changes, truth, information, friendship, kindness, love relationship, cruelty, reflections on desires you pursue, reflections on desires that you obtained, reflections on desires that you let go, etc, the cause and effect of your actions,

#############

back to the what is real business,

- real is a perception, it could be real for you, but so unreal to another person, this word behaves exactly like the words, "good", "bad",

- there is nothing real in the word "real", it doesn't means real just because the word having real in it,

- what stuffs associated with "real"? event, object functions, information, people,

- and we could extend that into everything, from the signals of our input sensors, a raw 1st hand or just copies like replaying tapes,

- perception means where you want to stand and looking it? so it differs from place to place, from view to view,

- but what the different a dice rolls out 5, with a digital random number that gives number 5?

- if one of the objective is to force human come to some sort of conclusion and judgement, whether to accept, reject, destroy some sort of ideas, then replaying those copies of signals into our input sensors might be the best way provide us the exact signals to reach their objective
Post 19 Sep 2016, 13:21
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
20th September 2016

from my own posts wrote:
- if all is atoms interacting with each others, cause and effect, why people want to introduce the concept "hope"? because hope doesn't change anything at all, it just a twisted belief to convince you, perhaps like do nothing and anticipating changes?


- hope is a kind of thoughts, it affects us physically like other thoughts, and cause body to reacts and do their own collaboration projects,

- i retract my words, hope does changes us, and changes cause changes,
Post 20 Sep 2016, 01:37
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
But you appear to be creating strawmen, or have some misunderstanding about what was intended, or I explained myself badly as usual.
Wow, you are really good at shifting your opponent's focus by paraphrasing or creating a distraction. Unfortunately, such tricks do not work on me.

First of all, it should be "straw man", or "man of straw". Refer to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/straw-man
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+man+of+straw

The hyphenated form "straw-man" is used as an adjective. Refer to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_proposal

Secondly, I am NOT the one who brought up all these philosophical mumbo jumbo. You are! Refer to:

https://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?p=190388#190388

In fact, I am the one who immediately criticized your impractical remark. Refer to:

https://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?p=190397#190397

Finally, you yourself admitted the pointlessness of your impractical remark:
revolution wrote:
But at the end of the day I still want to live, so rather than try to contemplate all the countless bajillions of quantum interactions required for every single minor muscle movement that it requires for me to stay alive, I prefer to simply think of it as raising my cup and taking a sip.
So, am I the one who created a straw man? Confused

For the record: revolution can no longer apply his/her "logical" argument because he/she cannot even show that the prerequisite in the argument is "real", or true!

P.S. By now, I believe most forum members should see the major difference between revolution's arguments and mine. I always support my arguments with quotes and links whereas revolution has nothing but his/her own words.

Wink
Post 20 Sep 2016, 05:40
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
hope does changes us, and changes cause changes
Very true. Hope is the driving force that keeps most people from ending their lives today!

Wink
Post 20 Sep 2016, 05:51
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
For the record: revolution can no longer apply his/her "logical" argument because he/she cannot even show that the prerequisite in the argument is "real", or true!
I am curious to know what exactly is the prerequisite in my remark? You seem to suggest that I must show that something (the prerequisite?) is "real", when I quite openly said the opposite; that we can not know if anything is real.

Or maybe I misunderstood, again?
Post 20 Sep 2016, 06:46
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
I must show that something (the prerequisite?) is "real", when I quite openly said the opposite; that we can not know if anything is real.
Good!

Thank mother nature!

revolution finally sees the paradox!

He/she always relies on some logical arguments to attack the opponent.

However, given his/her stance that nothing is real, he/she can never show that the prerequisite in his/her argument is real or true in the first place.

This means none of his/her arguments actually stands.

Wink
Post 20 Sep 2016, 07:35
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
But you forgot to state what the prerequisite is. What is required to be "real" before we can show nothing it "real"?
Post 20 Sep 2016, 07:41
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
But you forgot to state what the prerequisite is.
There is no rush. We have plenty of time.

Whenever you try to use your logical argument to attack other forum members again, I will be around.

I will point out that you must first establish the realness of something for your argument to stand. And you will be having a hard time to do so.

That would be fun, so much fun!

BTW, this is my 6000th post!

Wink
Post 20 Sep 2016, 09:26
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Why do you assume everything must be cased is a "real" argument? If we are in some virtual world of our own brains then that is the world within which we have to deal with. Inside that world we learn certain rules about action-reaction etc. and progress forward form there. Within each world arguments can be couched based upon the rules within. But such things are completely orthogonal to whether or not the world we know about is the "real" world or not.

So if I understand you correctly, your requirement appears to be that one has to prove the true real nature of everything before embarking on any sort of discussion.

But anyhow, people are free to choose whether or not to care about or acknowledge what I say here. Whatever they choose is fine with me. So please do go ahead and demand that I prove something "real" if you want to. It won't make any sense to me, but that is okay, I probably don't make any sense to others also.
Post 20 Sep 2016, 09:33
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
Why do you assume everything must be cased is a "real" argument? ... Within each world arguments ...

... embarking on any sort of discussion.
I have never made baseless accusations. See how revolution has shifted the focus to something else by paraphrasing and creating distractions.

Take a look at my posts. I have always been referring to his/her LOGICAL arguments, not causal discussions or everything he/she says.

When we apply logic to an argument, we MUST do so in a VIGOROUS manner.

There cannot be any vague statements, not to mention things that may or may not be "real".

If you like to put "could be", "might be", "can be", "may be", so on and so forth, in your arguments, be my guest but do so in your causal discussions.

Wink
Post 20 Sep 2016, 12:46
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Okay, fair enough, But why are you requiring me to argue only within something if I can prove it "real"?
Post 20 Sep 2016, 13:43
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
not sure why and what both of you disagree about,

maybe it is not real, my sensors just tricked me about all these, Laughing
Post 20 Sep 2016, 19:57
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
why are you requiring me to argue only within something if I can prove it "real"?
Can you?

Given your stance that nothing is real, how can you ever show that something is real?

That sounds like a paradox to me.

Maybe all these discussions are not real. I am just wasting my time! Mad

Wink
Post 21 Sep 2016, 01:17
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
not sure why and what both of you disagree about,
That is good news for you.

What revolution and I argue about is aged fellows' stuff, something that youngsters like you can never understand.

Wink
Post 21 Sep 2016, 01:24
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17473
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
revolution wrote:
why are you requiring me to argue only within something if I can prove it "real"?
Can you?

Given your stance that nothing is real, how can you ever show that something is real?
No I can't. But it is only your requirement that asks me to do something I already stated that I can't. So I still don't understand why you are imposing such demands upon me that can't be met.

I don't see your paradox BTW. To summarise my understanding:

1: revolution: We can't know what is real and what is not.
2: YONG: revolution you must prove things are real before you can discuss anything.
3: revolution: Erm, what? How can I do what I just said can't be done?
4: YONG: Aha, see the paradox. Now everything you say will be subject to me asking you to prove things are real.
5: revolution: Sorry, don't understand how you arrived at your conclusion.

Or something like that.

Perhaps you are conflating proving something real with a discussing things? At least that is what I first thought and mentioned earlier, but apparently that is incorrect. So if you can please oblige me to explain why I am required to prove things are real?
Post 21 Sep 2016, 01:28
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
2: YONG: revolution you must prove things are real before you can discuss anything.
WRONG!!!

SEE, the old trick reappears!!!

ALWAYS try to distract the opponent!!!

I have always been referring to your LOGICAL arguments. NOT casual discussions. NOT anything.

You are wasting my time!!!

Mad Mad Mad
Post 21 Sep 2016, 01:42
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
So please correct my misunderstanding.
Post 21 Sep 2016, 09:15
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
22th September 2016

- i move on because i aware, what is real or not is based on your own perception, what is real in this second might become so unreal in the next moment

- since real functions exactly like the word good and bad, and changes cause more changes, what is good might cause ultimate bad later,

- it just impossible to have a clear definition on perception, what real might be a group of, a dozen of unreal inside, then what is real then?

- and perception depend on where you look and view, it never the same,

- if you guys still don't understand this real stuff, maybe i am too dumb to explain to smart guys/gals like you all, i rest my case.
Post 22 Sep 2016, 03:35
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