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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
revolution wrote:

Magnets and gravity create what we measure as a force, but they do not expend energy.

So, what is energy?

If you stick 2 magnets with glue, where each of it keeps on repelling each other, aren't that energy? The glue is there to hold them, without the glue, they will break. It means even if nobody is watching it, these 2 magnets still trying to break away from that closeness.

Why energy cannot be created or destroyed?
Post 14 Apr 2019, 08:50
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
There is no energy being expended. It is just a repelling force, nothing else. You provided the potential energy when you forced them together. So eventually when the glue breaks down, the magnets will come apart, releasing the potential energy and converting it to kinetic energy. After that they won't move on their own, all the energy is spent.
Post 14 Apr 2019, 09:24
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1469
Furs
sleepsleep wrote:
revolution wrote:

Magnets and gravity create what we measure as a force, but they do not expend energy.

So, what is energy?

If you stick 2 magnets with glue, where each of it keeps on repelling each other, aren't that energy? The glue is there to hold them, without the glue, they will break. It means even if nobody is watching it, these 2 magnets still trying to break away from that closeness.

Why energy cannot be created or destroyed?
With that logic then any solid object composed of more than one atom constantly "uses energy" to hold itself together but that's not the case.
Post 14 Apr 2019, 12:34
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fpissarra



Joined: 10 Apr 2019
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fpissarra
sleepsleep wrote:
So we got magnet, attract and repel, I assumed such capability derived from the arrangement of atoms. Then how bout our gravity? We haven't discover the formation of atom that cause gravity?


The actual knowledge is that electromagnectic force and gravity are two of the primary forces of nature (there are 4: electromagnectic, gravity, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force). Atoms exists because of them, not the other way around.

And as a lot of thinks in science, nobody knows what they really are, but their effects.

Another example: What is "time"? Nobody knows (because if you define time as a linear sequence of events, you are saying "time is time")...

sleepsleep wrote:
If Earth is rotating round, ball shaped, certainly the gravity will cause object to measure differently across it's surface, does weight measured differently?


Gravity is independent of rotation, it is defined as direcly proportional of the masses of 2 bodies and inversely proportional of their distance squared. What you are talking about is centripetal/centrifugal force.
Post 14 Apr 2019, 14:15
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fpissarra



Joined: 10 Apr 2019
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fpissarra
revolution wrote:
I can't see how light (photons) could exist if energy is only a concept. Also many experiments have measured the transformation in both directions of energy to matter and back.


I didn't say that "energy" is *only* a concept. It is a concept that fits the experiments. It exists, but it is only a measure, a number... It explains a lot of phenomena... The same thing with "photons"... You can see light, but you can't see a photon...

revolution wrote:
Magnets and gravity create what we measure as a force, but they do not expend energy.

But quantities of matter (mass) under the influence of these forces do... Remember that electromagnectic force and gravitational force are primary "forces". The concepts cannot expend "energy", but their effects do.
Post 14 Apr 2019, 14:22
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fpissarra



Joined: 10 Apr 2019
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fpissarra
revolution wrote:
There is no energy being expended. It is just a repelling force, nothing else. You provided the potential energy when you forced them together. So eventually when the glue breaks down, the magnets will come apart, releasing the potential energy and converting it to kinetic energy. After that they won't move on their own, all the energy is spent.


Yep... but "spent" isn't the appropriate word because of conservative priinciple. These two "kinds" of enery is only a expression of this priniciple.

More or lessas as a "dormant" effect and a "movement" effect which always sums up to 0 (and that'y why cannot be created or destroyed, but only "transformed").
Post 14 Apr 2019, 14:27
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fpissarra



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fpissarra
I think @sleepsleep point of view is to understand science from a phylosophical lens.

There are good books about science phylosophy (and even for specific areas of science, as "philosophy of time").
Post 14 Apr 2019, 14:30
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
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Furs
fpissarra, I think you are confusing forces with energy.
Post 14 Apr 2019, 16:35
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
fpissarra wrote:
Yep... but "spent" isn't the appropriate word because of conservative priinciple.
I meant the potential energy is spent. Converted to kinetic energy. And, of course, eventually convert the heat energy.

By "spent" I mean that the primary form of energy has been used up, and we are left with only secondary forms of energy (e.g. waste heat).
Post 14 Apr 2019, 17:00
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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guignol
Can you tell how electron differs from photon?
Post 14 Apr 2019, 19:45
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
If we to observe the following picture,

Image

The human in above picture surely needs to constantly pull away the rubber band that trying to hold closely together if she were to maintain that position.

We could replace that 2 hands with anything that could hold that rubber band stationary, what they then use to hold that rubber band?

Furs wrote:
With that logic then any solid object composed of more than one atom constantly "uses energy" to hold itself together but that's not the case.

I would say, maybe, idk,
What cause those tiny things inside atom to keep on orbiting?

De-orbit one of those tiny thing inside an atom cause huge / more / expected energy to explode?

fpissarra wrote:
Another example: What is "time"? Nobody knows (because if you define time as a linear sequence of events, you are saying "time is time")...

Last time I concluded time as unit to measure changes from one point of view, like kilometer, meter, MHz, GHz etc.
Post 14 Apr 2019, 22:39
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Kedar



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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Kedar
...Hi all Smile. Shouldn’t Psychologically advanced beings expect that Consciousness is more than merely Physiological Energy? I’d be interested in your Responses to:
https://drakesealguild.weebly.com/psl_lesson_36.html

...Also curious about the unanswered “she” question...

By Energy, we mean the Smallest Thing in Existence. Energy is thus the Quantum of Simplicity. By Created, we mean a Structure is built up of our Smallest Things, from Simplicity to Complexity. By Destroyed we mean a Structure is broken back down into our Smallest Things, from Complexity to Simplicity.

As Energy is our Smallest Thing, it can’t be broken down to a Smaller Thing, so it can’t be Destroyed; and as there’s no Smaller Thing for Energy to be built up from, so it can’t be Created. Thus Energy can only be Transferred and Transformed (Energy Conservation Principle + ThermoDynamics 1st Law).

Also, none of us are Energy – we’re Structured Energy, and while Energy cannot be Created or Destroyed, Structure can be...it can also be Perfected...Very Happy
Post 15 Apr 2019, 00:54
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fpissarra



Joined: 10 Apr 2019
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fpissarra
revolution wrote:
I meant the potential energy is spent. Converted to kinetic energy. And, of course, eventually convert the heat energy.

By "spent" I mean that the primary form of energy has been used up, and we are left with only secondary forms of energy (e.g. waste heat).


I understood what you tried to say. But, still, energy cannot be "spent" (like somebody spent money, depleating his/her bank account)... Energy can only be transformed. And this is because the total sum of "energies" (potential and kinectic) must always be 0.

I was just trying to avoid someone trying to argument if energy could be "spent", why cannot be destroyed, got it?
Post 15 Apr 2019, 01:44
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fpissarra



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fpissarra
Furs wrote:
fpissarra, I think you are confusing forces with energy.

In what sense?

Just to cite 2 famous equations (and the sides of terms, in physics are important):

F = ma
Ek = mv²/2 (or E=mc²)...

Force is a thing that appears when a body is not stationary or in straight uniform movement (acceleration is variation of velocity). And Energy (kinectic) is a thing measuring the "work" done by movement over a mass...

For the first Newton's Law, if you don't trust me, read Principia Mathematica - Newton says almost exactly this!
Post 15 Apr 2019, 01:52
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fpissarra



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fpissarra
Kedar wrote:
By Energy, we mean the Smallest Thing in Existence. Energy is thus the Quantum of Simplicity. By Created, we mean a Structure is built up of our Smallest Things, from Simplicity to Complexity. By Destroyed we mean a Structure is broken back down into our Smallest Things, from Complexity to Simplicity.


I don't think this is "energy"... MAYBE, the smallest thing in existence is a quark...
Post 15 Apr 2019, 01:57
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
fpissarra wrote:
But, still, energy cannot be "spent" (like somebody spent money, depleating his/her bank account)..
When we spend money we transfer it to someone else. So in that case we don't destroy it. Spending money doesn't deplete the remaining supply, it just moves it around between people. The main difference between money and energy is that governments can create or destroy money, but for the normal citizen we can consider the meaning of spending money and spending energy to be equivalent.
Post 15 Apr 2019, 02:21
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fpissarra



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fpissarra
revolution wrote:
fpissarra wrote:
But, still, energy cannot be "spent" (like somebody spent money, depleating his/her bank account)..
When we spend money we transfer it to someone else. So in that case we don't destroy it. Spending money doesn't deplete the remaining supply, it just moves it around between people. The main difference between money and energy is that governments can create or destroy money, but for the normal citizen we can consider the meaning of spending money and spending energy to be equivalent.


So, if I give you my bank account, do you make a big deposit there? You'll be NOT out of money ever, do you? Smile
Post 15 Apr 2019, 02:27
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
The total money supply won't change if I transfer funds to someone else. I spent my money, and someone else received it. The same for energy. If I drive a car around and spend the energy from the fuel, the total energy supply won't change, it was just transferred to somewhere else.
Post 15 Apr 2019, 04:46
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Accident happened when things get transferred, when more people get involved, when the frequency of handling rise, accident happened.

Does accident happened when energy get transferred? or spent? Or I could ask this in another way, does the transfer of energy work so optimize and efficient, that we could assume zero accident could happen?

What cause the whole signals inside my physical body to function without accident? without any error? who the agent that solve all these issues?

Protocol for trasnfer must exists before energy gets transferred, initial paradox?

Protocol for explosion must exists before explosion could start?

What happened when you punch an aluminimum plate? The plate became hot, and deformed, we got some bang sound, what else? where the energy gone?
Post 15 Apr 2019, 18:26
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
For a normal car, 1 litter could go 18km, 22km on highway.

Now, what determine the energy for 1 litter petrol?

Could 1 litter drive to 100km? why not?

What exactly total energy 1 litter petrol could produce?
Post 15 Apr 2019, 21:40
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