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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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guignol
random [ˈrændəm] adj
任意
at random 偶然地
Post 20 Dec 2018, 16:09
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Book World: ‘Cracking the Egyptian Code,’ by Andrew Robinson, explores hieroglyphs

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/book-world-cracking-the-egyptian-code-by-andrew-robinson-explores-hieroglyphs/2012/08/22/db83be96-e0f5-11e1-a19c-fcfa365396c8_story.html
Quote:
In short, these ancient Egyptian figures could be used as an alphabet, though some could also remain symbolic. Without any vowels indicated, deciphering an inscription nonetheless remains tricky and has been likened to reading a rebus,


if they could build pyramid, why they used a writing system that some how doesn't make sense?

logogram,

before the writing system conceptualized, the idea must exists in mind or conscious first, and how evolution create the first idea in mind?

the idea of i will certainly trigger not i, others etc, are we coming into such idea without taught? i doubt,

then a human body to represent i,

the whole thing will flourish and expand almost instant,

then how all those sounds came into existence?

what happened in the beginning?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blissymbols

how to construct a writing system from scratch, Laughing
Post 20 Dec 2018, 19:26
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
how to separate a functional properties versus aesthetic properties in design of something?

functional could means of you take out that particular something, the thing just doesn't work,

but how to separate additional function versus core must have functions?

when the combination aesthetic functions grouped to become a core function?

eg,
handle for a cup, is it a core function or just aesthetic function?

is like the line between black and white,

something become sort of important, and yet not so important,

and how deep we are going to separate them?

imo, 1 and 0 is the core of all something,

could something that able to read write electricity be built solely on electricity?

i would say not possible, then i conclude there is something additional to 0 and 1,

something that could group, tie up 0 and 1,

byte, word, dword are conceptual, but what are them in our nature?

we could probably have variable length bit,
where maximum number of zero+1 or 1+zero padding in front and end, then the whole thing will just work in block now,

00000101011101111000011111100000 one block

but how to separate next block that started from 0,

we could use the pattern, 0 to 1 then followed by equal 0,

000001010111011110000111111000001111100000
to terminate it as a block,
5 zero, 5 one then followed by 5 zero,

how this thing could alive without program is beyond my mind, at least it just somehow conclude, we are designed,

let say we think of another way to play with this,

every two 0 is 1 zero,
every two 1 is 1 one,
it could be 3 and more, and we could play it another way now,

the expansion of such allow us to embed rules in 0 and 1,

8 zero is 1 zero, 8 bit become 1 bit,
64 bytes equal 1 byte,

probably half byte is enough to play this,

then we could have instruction inside streaming bytes,

eg, 64 zero after this,
2 pattern A after this, and registered pattern become something new,

is seems like expansion of bit only increase more creativity,

pattern means rules,

pattern means formation,

pattern means system,
Post 21 Dec 2018, 16:27
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
https://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/egyptian/unicode/tablehieratic.html

i seriously wonder, does those pyramid builders really use such characters?

it doesn't make sense to me, it is hard to write or draw, and why make words hard to write?

what kinda system inside such language?

sounds must exists together with meaning before words exist,

if evolution from scratch, that means we use the sound generated by creatures as reference in picture,

angry dog got arrrr sounds,
normal barking is wow wow, the w sound,

animal head down to deeper voice,

duck quack sounds, K sound?

snake to sound of s?

but how meaning could arise from scratch?
Post 21 Dec 2018, 19:49
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
the full moon is a bit weird on the lower right side 6 to 9, the shape is not so round or curve there,

viewing from Malaysia,
Post 21 Dec 2018, 20:44
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sts-q



Joined: 29 Nov 2018
Posts: 32
sts-q
some clouds

some outside

some inside

us
Post 22 Dec 2018, 05:50
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
what a weird dream,
still I was inside a metro train,
somehow the train stopped at first metro station, there were delay like a few minutes, a few riders dropped off, but the girl who sit beside me still on train,

then the train moved towards next station, after a while, we reached next station, the girl who sit beside me walk away with intention to wash something, but this time, the train started to move after like less than 1 minute, the girl still washing her plates or what, idk,

well, somehow I got the girl WhatsApp or what, I told her to relax and we meet at the Grand station, or final station, her bags and etc are safe with me, I will bring them down later,

here the story about how we communicate from time to time to meet again at the grand station,

Do I know this girl, no, she just a person who sit beside me,

Why I got her WhatsApp or etc to communicate?
idk, probably I got her contact while she is sitting beside me, and idk how many station we passed already,

the dream just fast forward to that frame, like West world, the scene started in a moving train,
Post 24 Dec 2018, 21:12
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
life turns into scary drama daily, once you realized you are having a grenade that could triggers anytime,

I don't have to share you the feeling of helplessness,

But this actually prompted me, to find, to discover, to ponder, to conclude,

What are the best alternative routes out there,

We could take what others said and claimed, and believe by believing that, they will turn to truth, to reality, to become as intended,

But deep inside our heart, we knew,

Once we stop believing those, they simply vanished out of sights,

How something could just vanish when you stop believing it?

It just means they are not there in the first place,

Placebo effects,

All kinds of mind tricks out there, how we assure ourselves we haven't been tricked?
Post 25 Dec 2018, 19:18
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bzt



Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 43
bzt
Quote:
if they could build pyramid, why they used a writing system that some how doesn't make sense?
Because that was state-of-the-art at the time. You have several thousand years of accumulated knowledge at your disposal, they hadn't.

Quote:
before the writing system conceptualized, the idea must exists in mind or conscious first, and how evolution create the first idea in mind?
how to construct a writing system from scratch,
Scholars have identified three areas where writing systems were developed independently: Middle East, MIddle America, China. All their early writing systems evolved following these steps:
1. first they used small drawed figures (like a fish, cow, fur, cloth, etc.), and used for accounting purposes only. That was necessary to trade with people who spoke different language. We still use this kind of "writing" on maps, because it's language-independent and therefore very intuitive.
2. people started to use drawings for other (non-accounting or non-trade-related, more abstract) things, they've added new symbols for example for verbs (like two legs in open position for walking, an arm holding a sword meaning to fight etc.). This was necessary to tell stories.
3. after about 500-1000 years, drawing the figures many-many iteration, those slowly became simplified, easily drawable and non-figurative; but the symbols represented the same thing as the early drawed figures
4. some writing systems stopped in development at this point (like Chinese, Mayan, etc.) and therefore their alphabet represent ideograms. Downside, more thousand symbols required, advantage it's language-agnostic.
5. as the need for writing the name of the kings and heros in the stories appeared, other writing systems became more abstract, and people started to use the symbols for the words like they sounded and not for the things the symbol represented. Words were very often shortened to the first syllable (for example the symbol originated from a "fur" drawing did not represented the fur anymore, but the "fu" sound, which could be used as part of other words too). Advantage that less than a hundred symbols required in the alphabet (for example Hiragana) and it allows fast and compact writing, but here you have to know the language itself that was used for the writing.
6. some writing systems evolved even further, where symbols represented exactly one sound instead of syllables (see phonetic writing). Even shorter alphabet with only tens of smbols, like Phoenician alphabet which was the predecessor of the Greek alphabet. The disadvantage with this approach is, that not all language share the same sounds, therefore vowels had to be added to differentiate (particularly true in East Europe, see unicode's Latin extensions).

Different tools used for writing the letters (like crawled in stone, pushed in clay, ink on pergamen, pen, stylus, pencil, later printing etc.) gave birth to font faces and typography (like Fractura, Sans-Serif, Helvetica etc.) I'd like to note that this has evolved in paralell with the alphabet itself.

Hope this anwsers your question. The evolution of writing is quite logical and straightforward if you think about it.

Quote:
byte, word, dword are conceptual, but what are them in our nature?
That's just a consensus. First machnies grouped 7, 10 and some even 12 bits for a byte. Later 8 was picked and standardized because that's the closest power of two number to ten, the numeric system which we use IRL.

Quote:
we could probably have variable length bit,
Nope you can't, that's the unit. A bit is either set (1, high voltage, true) or clear (0, low voltage, false). With low-level storage you can use half-lengths, like with the 1.5 long stop bit in the RS232 protocol on UARTs, but those do not have a value (only unit long low and high voltages can have).

If you meant variable length bytes, then yes, take a look for example Huffman-encoding or UTF-8 encoding.

Quote:
i seriously wonder, does those pyramid builders really use such characters?
Don't wonder, that's a fact. Evidence is everywhere.

Quote:
We could take what others said and claimed, and believe by believing that, they will turn to truth, to reality, to become as intended,
Conceptually wrong. Belief never turns to be truth or reality. That's simply a lie, usually told by politicians and cult-leaders. Example: believe very strong that you can fly. If you very-very-very-very-very(-very) strongly believe that, does it became reality, what do you think? Another example: will the denial of global warming stop the flood?

Quote:
All kinds of mind tricks out there, how we assure ourselves we haven't been tricked?
No offense, but you certainly have. The solution (known for more than two thousand years, btw): use logic, and never believe anything just because someone said so. Always check the thrustworthyness of the source, and check the validity of every conclusion (preferably with empirical proof).

Happy Xmas
bzt
Post 26 Dec 2018, 03:29
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
but how the ideas first exists in conscious? eg, the i idea?

most likely writing system exists after they have verbal communication system, i guess so,

but what before verbal communication system? it seems to me they are created almost at the same moment,

and what prevent dogs, cats etc to communicate with others? or create a writing system for their kinds?

~

in another doubt,

could we have superior engineering skills but simple numerical representation?
Post 26 Dec 2018, 05:26
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
and what prevent dogs, cats etc to communicate with others?
Nothing. And they do communicate with others. Ask any pet owner how much communicate they have with their pet(s).
Post 26 Dec 2018, 05:45
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bzt



Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 43
bzt
sleepsleep wrote:
but how the ideas first exists in conscious? eg, the i idea?
It wasn't one bright idea at all. It was a long way with many small ideas. As I have wrote,
1. first there was the need to trade with people who had different language -> pictograms, figures
2. then came the need to express stories -> verbs and other symbols
3. lastly came the need to write person's name (which obviously can't have distinct drawing) -> symbols interpreted as syllables
4. simplifying that lead to the phonetic alphabet we use today

Quote:
most likely writing system exists after they have verbal communication system, i guess so,
Verbal communication is about several ten thousand years older than writing.

Quote:
but what before verbal communication system? it seems to me they are created almost at the same moment,
Nope. First came simple verbal communication (alerts, warnings, direction to food sources etc.). You can see this today with chimpanzees and elephants for example. Then as pre-humans evolved, the idea of past and future developed, the communication became more complex and sentences were born (time not known, probably ca. 3-200 000 years ago?). Literature (like poems) took another ten thousand years to be developed (but also predates writing systems). We can know for sure that complex verbal communication was developed before the evolution of homo neanderthalensis and homo spaiens forked (because there is evidence that they were both telling myths and stories, figurines and drawings of the same characters in both sub-spieces suggest that). Just for completeness, the interbreed of neanthertalensis and sapiens first happened about 55 000 years ago, and writing systems first developed about 5 000 years ago.

Quote:
and what prevent dogs, cats etc to communicate with others? or create a writing system for their kinds?
As revolution said, they are communicating. They are at the level where they can express lots of things, but not sentences (no past nor future tense, only present). It is not known whether the second smartest spieces of Earth, the dolphins are forming sentences or not, but seems likely (but not proved without doubt so far). Developing a writing system would require to comprehend past first to develop the need to keep records of what had happened (for example cave drawings telling stories about hunting), and also big enough brain to use sophisticated movements with your hands and fingers (i.e. able to draw in the first place. There dolphins have a huge disadvantage there). But for example elephants can draw, so their brain is sophisticated enough for that. As far as I know no animals (save humans) are creating cave drawings on their own, so they are very far from developing a writing system.

Quote:
could we have superior engineering skills but simple numerical representation?
What do you mean? All numerical representation are simple. The only big development there was the invention of the zero, and after that digits, but both happened many several thousand years ago. Ancient Sumerians used number system of 60 (we still have their heritage with the minutes and the 360 degree), Mayans used 20, ancient Inidans and Arabians 10 as the base of their number system. IMHO as long as you know digits, you can calculate whatever you want.

Cheers,
bzt
Post 26 Dec 2018, 17:06
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
One Giant Step for a Chess-Playing Machine
The stunning success of AlphaZero, a deep-learning algorithm, heralds a new age of insight — one that, for humans, may not last long.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/science/chess-artificial-intelligence.html

the day when human created ~, and it evolves faster than we could understand,

it strucks me, perhaps there is a limit in human ability to understand since we couldn't be so professionally focus like our algorithms, but who know, maybe after some years, machines decide, it is better to not having superior focus capability? Laughing

could creation surpasses creator? it seems and sounds highly possible,
Post 27 Dec 2018, 02:59
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
woke myself up from sleep again,

I usually use heavy breath to gain some momentum, then lastly the energy to woke myself up,

is like the more activities happening, the easier for me to self wake up,

is there equivalent smell that could cause some nose and heart activities, like frying l some chillies?
Post 27 Dec 2018, 07:51
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
a few things happened in a few week,

I met with 2 interesting human,

Is about to 2019
Kinda scary,

Not sure if you guys wanna read, Gospel of Thomas,
http://freelyreceive.net/metalogos/files/thomas.html

I like this idea, postcards for shell,
https://freeshell.de/
Post 28 Dec 2018, 13:07
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Does anyone of us scare and afraid an ant? the tiny ant, the one that you could terminate instantly at any moment as long as you could press your finger,

I guess nobody afraid an ant,

But how about some thousand and hundred thousand ants?

Then suddenly we become very afraid, very much fear, and suddenly we realize we don't have the capability to terminate them,

Now if you bring this idea into god and human,

It probably works the same way, I guess,

But why this idea of terminate others kicks in? Is this something built inside us? Our programs?

Why we fear, and why we having the idea to dislike fear?

But are these a different coin? Because we seem to prefer like, why we like, something it occurs so naturally that we don't even ponder, why we like, or hate something,

Indoctrination could be some excuses, could be some very real reason too,

But deep inside our conscious, do we really having the program, fear and exterminate fear? and equal for like, or love, and do whatever ways to get what we like, desire or love?

When this is our core routine, most likely we will having trouble and hard to switch, if let say we want to put caring life as first priority, or etc, humanity, or whatever values out there,

Then it backs to this question, what is our core routine? what is our core program?
Post 28 Dec 2018, 19:31
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Taking advantages,

And what is that?
Is buy low then sell high akin to taking advantages?

Is helping a person or many persons when they really need your help and command them to some negotiation before providing help, is equal to taking advantages?

How about telling you hell is in front, but requested you to believe in something in order to escape this hell, is this taking advantages?

What is taking advantages?
Let us define it as, using some sort of advantages, here we refer to power, status, eliteness, whatever that provide us a better condition to force others, to accept our terms, to having output, result, according to our term where the terms break the principles of justice, fair play and etc balance, fair values,

It must breaks those principles in order to defined as taking advantages,

It must be terms that people must accept and no way to reject,

It could be a situation that people hardly having some other choice,

It seems that, this word is linked to force, subset of force,

When the nature is using force, does that equal to taking advantages?

Eruptions of volcanoes, raining, lightning, thunderstorm, rough oceans, shining sun rays, etc, they are all forces,

Unless we are having extra forces, otherwise, we will have to abide to those forces,

Death inevitable, death is taking advantages on us?

Sleep too is inevitable,

No doubt, we are being oppressed by system all the time, Laughing
Post 28 Dec 2018, 20:08
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1469
Furs
sleepsleep wrote:
Does anyone of us scare and afraid an ant? the tiny ant, the one that you could terminate instantly at any moment as long as you could press your finger,

I guess nobody afraid an ant,

But how about some thousand and hundred thousand ants?

Then suddenly we become very afraid, very much fear, and suddenly we realize we don't have the capability to terminate them,

Now if you bring this idea into god and human,

It probably works the same way, I guess,

But why this idea of terminate others kicks in? Is this something built inside us? Our programs?
Pretty much yeah. Humans always fear those which are not like them, and even fear others like them who are stronger. It's part of racism too. They want to be in control, so things outside of human control = fear.

Of course, if an AI looks at us the same way, we then go and whine about how the AI is "evil" or some other nonsense, but we should look at humans first. They're the largest terminators for things that are a potential threat to their existence.
Post 28 Dec 2018, 21:59
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1469
Furs
sleepsleep wrote:
Taking advantages,

And what is that?
Is buy low then sell high akin to taking advantages?

Is helping a person or many persons when they really need your help and command them to some negotiation before providing help, is equal to taking advantages?

How about telling you hell is in front, but requested you to believe in something in order to escape this hell, is this taking advantages?
Assume you are this god you speak of. There's your home ("Heaven"), and then there's outside ("Hell").

Let's say you see these puny humans which curse you and don't acknowledge your existence and whatever. Would you consider not letting them in your home as taking advantage of people who are clearly not exactly your friends or trying to co-exist with you? I mean, come on...

If I were God, I personally wouldn't save a single human that defied me (not serving me, but stuff like mocking me or w/e), and probably wouldn't forgive them either, but maybe I'm just not loving enough. Note that I wouldn't go out of my way to terminate them like you said with ants. I'd simply not help them at all, so they end up in Hell cuz I'm not going to save their sorry asses from the devil.

Actually I'd totally do the exact same thing in a zombie apocalypse. If someone dared to force himself into my home even when he's not on good terms with me I'd shoot his face right off.
Post 28 Dec 2018, 22:05
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bzt



Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 43
bzt
Furs wrote:
Pretty much yeah. Humans always fear those which are not like them, and even fear others like them who are stronger. It's part of racism too. They want to be in control, so things outside of human control = fear.
I'd like to disagree. I think humans by nature are not afraid of the unknown (e.g. those not like them or stranger). I think curiousity is a much more stronger human trait. Any parent can tell you, how it's when a child keep asking "but why?" Smile Or how easily little children can connect to each other when playing, without the smallest sign of racism for example.

IMHO there are two groups of people: one that can be brainwashed to fear almost anything when they grew up (the big unnamed mass, unfortunately); and the other group who are immune to that, and will keep their curiousity no matter what. That latter group consists of scientists, inventors, explorers, all the people we know by name (e.g. Marco Polo, Magellan, Amerigo Vespucci, Admunsen, Galilei, von Braun, etc. etc. etc.)

I think people who are obsessed by control are the ones who are unnatural and brainwashed by possession (yes, that includes the "elite" too who spread the fear in the first place and uses mass-scale brainwashing over the media). I think their thoughts might be: masses in fear = easier to control. Which might be true to a certain degree on a small scale, but no gov were able to handle panic, ever.

Maybe it sounds strange to you, but humans were living in small communities for far longer than as individuals in cities. Just ask any antropologist. For small groups (like a village, few hundred people, no more) helping each other is the norm, and if a member became obsessed with ego and goods in the expanse of others, then they will find themselves killed or exiled within a blink of an eye (as a self-healing reaction of the community). That's the natural way of living for human beings, has been for hundred thousands years. Living in cities has some advantages no doubt, but overpopulated cities messed that help-each-other norm up. The problem is (aside of big-city-lonliness), ten thousands years is not enough to surpress human's basic instincts, no matter how much the "elite" want that. No wonder there are so many mentally sick people in Western civilizations (and in big cities et all), where people are forced to go against their nature. The overconsumption of anti-depressants is not without a cause, you know.

Cheers,
bzt
Post 29 Dec 2018, 02:49
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