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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
YONG wrote:

If there are no competitions, the society will become stagnant.

maybe, 50/50 here,
Post 22 Sep 2017, 10:07
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
YONG wrote:

If there are no competitions, the society will become stagnant.
maybe, 50/50 here,
It is not 50/50; it is a certainty. That's why we need competition laws.

Wink
Post 22 Sep 2017, 10:26
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
it still sounds 50/50 to me, Wink
i dont doubt the capability of competition to stir progress, i only doubt if competition is the only factor to prevent society stays in stagnant,

i believe creative ideas are released from time to time through human, regardless existence of competition,

the mind keeps on looping, changes cause changes, and stagnant is almost impossible,

people could become content with provided systems or solutions, so only subtle changes are required to fix new issues,

until linus plans to rewrite the whole kernel, Wink

is linux kernel stagnant?
Post 22 Sep 2017, 16:37
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1466
Furs
That's a very narrow view of progress as usual from people who think capitalism profit is everything.

While it is undeniable many (most?) people do it for money or recognition or fame or whatever other competitive mindset, some do it because they genuinely want to do it, which is more often found among scientists than just engineers. It is completely absurd to think all the great minds' ideas that our society built everything upon sprung because of competition.

Since it was recently so I thought of this example right now, what competition did NASA have with Cassini and the Saturn mission? Doesn't look like such a zero-effort project to me. Sure, the parts they used might have sprung from competition (whoever they bought it from likely care only about profits), but the people who worked on the mission did it for science.

I guess thirst for knowledge, discovery and curiosity is not a thing to some people or not anymore these days.

Can't be a "man of science" in this day and age, must be only a "man of profit", according to some people's ideas. Confused
Post 22 Sep 2017, 16:53
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
23th September 2017
- officially 23th today, 12:43 AM here,

- it been raining for the past few hours, some lower areas around my state were flooded,

- i just surfing facebook live streams and monitoring the whole world,

- then you see lots of people who really need some sort of help, they look helpless, bored, waiting for some sort of engagement from others, etc

- this actually caused me to have some conclusions, because if a person cant stop wanting and desiring something and more, there is nothing much others could really help,

- because all kinds of help pour into them will cause them to demand more, expect more, want more, desire more, and so on,

- because we cant save them, but we could probably enlighten them, issue is ~ passing enlightenment require wisdom, and perhaps more than wisdom,

- i think this is insightful,
How to Convince People to Buy Without Being Pushy
https://everyonehatesmarketers.com/convince-people-to-buy/

- know how people persuade us to buy stuffs that we dont really need, learn the tricks, and use them all to persuade people stop buying thing, Wink
Post 22 Sep 2017, 16:56
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
is linux kernel stagnant?
There is no free lunch in the real world. Even the developers or organizations behind free Linux distros need to find income sources.

An example:

Ubuntu Advantage commercial support
https://www.ubuntu.com/support

Money keeps the development process going, and popularity of the distro brings in money. At the end of the day, it is, again, about competitions.

Wink
Post 23 Sep 2017, 02:11
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
all kinds of help pour into them will cause them to demand more, expect more, want more, desire more, and so on,
Exactly! So, the best way is to have nothing -- nothing at all. You should immediately convert all your assets to bitcoin and then send the full amount to one of the forum members. And you will have no more desire!

Wink
Post 23 Sep 2017, 02:18
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
sleepsleep wrote:

because all kinds of help pour into them will cause them to demand more, expect more, want more, desire more, and so on,


the real need is to fulfill our basic necessities, anything other than that is additional, have it or not, it doesn't matter,
Post 23 Sep 2017, 06:33
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
25 September 2017
I just thought about this,

so you see somehow this thing just go inside my mind,
so are you Siri I'm not actually control anything even the slightest

we have almost zero control,

somebody would just treat us to do anything perhaps try being us some money then they can assess to our own,

the objectives of being alive could probably be took control our ow


n self be free all kinds of tricks that sublime us to do things,

when someone blame us for their own fault, we quickly fight against, we become emotional, as if it is f. important to win an argument, to prove to others that we are correct, we are right,

we have no control, and we just living like a mad man, without our own awareness,

so, you are standing right now in front of a coffin,
watching somebody who passed away,
one day, someone else will stand like how you stand now, having exact moment like this, like you, except the person inside the coffin is us,

all kinds of illnesses to wipe us instantly, yet we don't getting everybody to collaborate and solve problems,

we live and fight like pyramid, stepping on people below us, not realizing we all are on a sinking ship,

there is no pyramid after the ship sank,

there is no pyramid after the sand dunes cover the whole pyramid,

we don't think bout consequences, we think bout our own profit, benefits, powers, famed,

our ego is a wild factor, we let impulsiveness and eagerness take control of us,

The test of patience is when you don't have patience, not when you want to be patient,
Post 24 Sep 2017, 19:20
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
when someone blame us for their own fault, we quickly fight against, we become emotional, as if it is f. important to win an argument, to prove to others that we are correct, we are right,
There is nothing wrong with debating. The most important thing is that we MUST conduct our arguments in a rational and respectful manner; no-one bothers to discuss anything with "a big mouth" that always argues based on his/her own "logic" and never shows any respect to his/her opponents.

Wink
Post 25 Sep 2017, 03:57
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
maybe it is hard to win an argument using the gentleman way, maybe,
because the ego want to win desperately, to somehow show the world, he she it is the person in charge,

but why such ego exist?
why we must be the person who give command and desperately want our command to be followed?

seeing that so many people are easily controlled by monies, including myself, just kinda wondering what kind of life would it be, if human are really free, Wink
Post 25 Sep 2017, 11:12
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1466
Furs
YONG wrote:
There is nothing wrong with debating. The most important thing is that we MUST conduct our arguments in a rational and respectful manner; no-one bothers to discuss anything with "a big mouth" that always argues based on his/her own "logic" and never shows any respect to his/her opponents.
Too bad you don't need respect for logic or rationality, because by definition they are self-evident. Respect (to an argument) is a scapegoat for weak arguments. Same reason you don't have to respect the fact that 1+1 = 2. It's not a matter of opinion. Only weak arguments require "respect" because, you know, people don't want to accept they are terrible, so instead of outright saying that, let's go politically correct like "I respect your argument but I respectfully disagree".

Try saying that to someone who says 1+1=3 is his "opinion" that should be respected.

I know some people label "logic" (or rather, illogic) based on what they want to believe instead of the actual underlying logic. They then resort to words like respect instead of, you know, countering the logic or showing why it's false (because logic is true or false, there's no grey area) which is the way a proper argument is done.

I know that if I were to re-iterate the logic in 2 simple steps right now you'd probably say I'm "starting again!!!" (if you don't already ignore me anyway).
Post 25 Sep 2017, 11:31
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
seeing that so many people are easily controlled by monies, including myself, just kinda wondering what kind of life would it be, if human are really free, Wink
Most, if not all, of us live in capitalistic societies, where money is the driving force of almost everything.

The following scene from "Star Trek: First Contact (1996)" may give us a clue:

Money Doesn't Exist in the Future
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rh3xPatEto

Wink
Post 25 Sep 2017, 12:13
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
@Furs
all the conflicts and misunderstanding and ways to debate ideas, are probably the cause, because we dont have official ways, recommended ways to debate something, and when more words put into context to support our ideas, it becomes more messy and increase more out of topic chances,

- is every opinion no matter how lame, how weak it sounds should be respected, i think yes,

- i think, respect is the foundation to explore further, without that, we could only move 1 inch,

- the idea of talking is to allow others to understand, to enlighten others, and ourselves,

- we could brush off others and save lots of time, we get things done, but we lost the foundation of talking, communicating, and perhaps humanity, Wink

- btw, idk what i am typing, the cursor moves by itself, Laughing

@YONG
i will dl it after 2 am later, Wink saving quota, my prepaid period start from 23 to next month 23 Laughing

will figure out if termux support cron job, so this thing will kinda automatically dl and i could watch it anytime i want, Laughing
Post 25 Sep 2017, 12:34
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
I just thought about this,

Is it important for you to know what my car's plate number is?

Well, certainly this number is useless almost to everybody,

now, compare this with how the first human came into existence,

compare this to the lottery number that gonna draw in coming weekend,

compare this to the profit and loss for ABC company in the coming quarter,

fake news and fact, information, lies, propaganda,

why we care about what is what?

compare how we find the route from a to b inside a pc game, to find a route from your house to nearest sundry shop,
Post 25 Sep 2017, 18:19
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
compare this to the lottery number that gonna draw in coming weekend,
Please let me know the results of the coming lottery draw; it is very important to me. (Just pick six numbers from 1 to 49.)

Wink
Post 26 Sep 2017, 01:55
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
5 12 22 39 40 48
Post 26 Sep 2017, 14:20
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1466
Furs
sleepsleep wrote:
@Furs
all the conflicts and misunderstanding and ways to debate ideas, are probably the cause, because we dont have official ways, recommended ways to debate something, and when more words put into context to support our ideas, it becomes more messy and increase more out of topic chances,

- is every opinion no matter how lame, how weak it sounds should be respected, i think yes,

- i think, respect is the foundation to explore further, without that, we could only move 1 inch,

- the idea of talking is to allow others to understand, to enlighten others, and ourselves,

- we could brush off others and save lots of time, we get things done, but we lost the foundation of talking, communicating, and perhaps humanity, Wink

- btw, idk what i am typing, the cursor moves by itself, Laughing
That's simply not true man.

If it's about opinions, then yes you should respect the opinions of all parties. That's normal. But the specific thing in particular wasn't about opinion. It was about logic. Bringing opinion into a logical debate deserves no respect. Like I said, it's like bringing the argument that "my opinion is that 1+1=3" and a mathematician should respect it as a valid opinion. How absurd is that?

I know that YONG doesn't look at the actual logic and thinks it discredits the opposition. Notice how he hasn't even once attempted to even argue against the logic, cause he only cares about the person saying it, shifting blame like "oh so you want to judge people!!" as if that has anything to do with the logic. That's exactly how you don't conduct a logical debate, it's called "ad hominem". (i.e. see what he said even above with "big mouth", as if that discredits actual logic he *purposefully* ignored, fallacy -- talking about back then)

For example, an argument like "proven murderers deserve the death penalty, logical consequence of their actions, what they did must come back to them" is perfectly logical. It's not subjective, it's objectively fair -- i.e. fair judgement. What is not logical is having special, arbitrary exceptions or rules here, like we have in most current societies. (unless you're a worshipper of a given society's laws, in which case it's obviously the absolute truth!)

What is not is bullshit like shifting it into an emotional argument or "ad hominem" fallacy, something like "Oh so you think you can judge who deserves to live or die?!??" or bullshit like that. That kind of nonsense is why there's so many ignorant people in this world.

Here more reading for you to understand what I'm talking about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Wink
Post 26 Sep 2017, 14:22
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
i like your idea about setting logic as foundation of debate and communication,

and i think, the way of presenting the logic is equally important like the logic itself,

truth, humanity, justice, ~ humanity equal all kinds of human only emotions, which is what that actually cause us to remain and to be defined as human,

i disagree with not including emotion in logical debate,
Post 26 Sep 2017, 17:24
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
5 12 22 39 40 48
I will check your prediction against the winning numbers of this weekend's lottery draw. If your prediction is wrong, I will come after you! Evil or Very Mad

Wink
Post 27 Sep 2017, 04:56
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