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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
There's no such thing as beginning or end without time though.
Exactly! That's why there is no beginning and no end in such a "timeless" state.

The word "eternal" tends to have the meaning of "lasting forever". And "forever" is somewhat related to time.

Wink
Post 06 Aug 2017, 13:07
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
so I don't see why you think an eternal creator (instead of random instability) is any different.
The inherent instability is truly random and thus it is not special.

The eternal creator, on the other hand, is special because he/she/it had certain "preferences" and created our universe in a very delicate manner.

Wink
Post 06 Aug 2017, 13:16
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8897
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sleepsleep
YONG wrote:
sleepsleep wrote:
- i am having issue with evolution with only 1 and 0,
Get some sleep and your issue will be automatically resolved. Trust me.

Wink

yah, i woke up and found some other ideas, Wink

so 1 and 0 are raw representation of everything, and to even move or align them randomly, to pair them or etc,

energy is the most raw power that capable to bring changes, energy is probably the most ancient existence, probably is/are god, Wink

there are energy inside all of us, but we rarely feel them, even to think, to type, to move my fingers, etc, they all are energy,

so energy equal the agent that cause changes,

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=about_home

- heat (thermal)
- light (radiant)
- motion (kinetic)
- electrical
- chemical
- nuclear energy
- gravitational

i guess sound wave too is energy, Embarassed

they are all sacred, they are the reason i am here, Cool

i should able to feel energy inside my body, how to increase them, transform them, center them, etc,
Post 06 Aug 2017, 13:29
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
i guess sound wave too is energy, Embarassed
Yes, it is sound energy, which belongs to the kinetic energy category because sound wave is just the concerted vibrations of the molecules in the medium, such as air, water, and metals.

Wink
Post 06 Aug 2017, 13:39
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17276
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
The eternal creator, on the other hand, is special because he/she/it had certain "preferences" and created our universe in a very delicate manner.
Different people have different ideas about exactly what a/the creator is, and what it did to create us. So perhaps an/the eternal creator just made trillions of universes all with different properties without knowing what would happen. Think of it as a series of experiments. And this universe that we currently live in is just one of those trillions. Maybe this is the only universe to progress and evolve life etc. We don't know. But claiming certain preference is premature until we actually discover evidence.
Post 06 Aug 2017, 13:51
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
YONG wrote:
The inherent instability is truly random and thus it is not special.

The eternal creator, on the other hand, is special because he/she/it had certain "preferences" and created our universe in a very delicate manner.
Well, you could be right, even though I disagree (but that's just an opinion, neither are fact). That wasn't what I was arguing about though, but the fact you found the "eternal" thing as improbable, which is actually a fact.

Of course, even your instability would be eternal, so in that sense it could very well be true -- but not what you claimed about eternal stuff earlier Razz (or maybe I misunderstood, in which case, nevermind it)
Post 06 Aug 2017, 14:23
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
Different people have different ideas about exactly what a/the creator is, and what it did to create us.
True. More generally, what "creation" is and how creation gave rise to the universe (as we know it).

On such a topic, all we can do is come up with some sensible ideas, based on our current understanding of physics. Of course, some ideas make more sense than the others.

Wink
Post 07 Aug 2017, 02:17
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
perhaps an/the eternal creator just made trillions of universes all with different properties without knowing what would happen. Think of it as a series of experiments.
Suppose what you are suggesting is true.

First, it implies that the eternal creator is NOT omnipotent, which is not illogical but certainly kind of strange.

Second, it implies that the eternal creator has some kind of "consciousness".

Third, it implies that there was a purpose behind creation.

A couple of questions for you:

How come the creator -- which is definitely something special -- can exist eternally?

What is the reason or purpose behind his/her/its eternal existence?

Wink
Post 07 Aug 2017, 02:37
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
but the fact you found the "eternal" thing as improbable
Qualification needed: Things that are special.

Nothingness has nothing -- there is no reason or purpose behind it.

Its inherent instability is truly random -- there are no deterministic laws behind it.

Only the eternal existence of the pre-creation void that is not associated with any deterministic laws makes sense to me -- because it is truly reasonless/purposeless.

Wink
Post 07 Aug 2017, 02:53
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
YONG wrote:
How come the creator -- which is definitely something special -- can exist eternally?

What is the reason or purpose behind his/her/its eternal existence?
Firstly, the "creator" may just be properties and/or laws of the universe, not necessarily a sentient being of any type. And it's eternal existence is not necessarily guaranteed either. Which, of course, creates the paradox of what created the creator. It's turtles all the way down.

Secondly, there might not be any particular purpose: shit happens.

Suppose I was to create a "Universe" inside my computer with some simulation software. And also suppose that some form of thinking intelligence came into existence inside this simulation. I, as the creator, might not even be aware it is happening, its all just ones and zeros to me. I don't need to be omnipotent, or omni-anything, to create such a thing. And I also don't need to be eternal. But nevertheless I created it, yay me, I'm now a god Smile If, inside this simulation, the creatures are praying to me, and worshipping me, and whatnot, it would all be wasted effort. I wouldn't know or care what they were doing since I wouldn't know they even exist. To me their existence is just another set of uninteresting binary bits amongst trillions of others.

It's all just a bunch of rocks.
Post 07 Aug 2017, 08:47
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
Firstly, the "creator" may just be properties and/or laws of the universe, not necessarily a sentient being of any type. And it's eternal existence is not necessarily guaranteed either. Which, of course, creates the paradox of what created the creator. It's turtles all the way down.
Calling the eternal creator some sort of pre-creation laws is just changing its name. The ultimate problem then becomes:

How come such eternal pre-creation laws exist?

And what is the reason or purpose behind such laws?

Perhaps "shit" just exists!

Wink
Post 07 Aug 2017, 09:58
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
Suppose I was to create a "Universe" inside my computer with some simulation software. ...
In that case, every single move, thought, and memory fragment of every single being within the simulation is unambiguously recorded. You, the creator/programmer, may not bother to find out such minute details -- but you can if you want. So, you are omnipotent, as far as the simulation is concerned; you just choose not to exercise your power.

To me, an eternal creator that is not omnipotent sounds kind of strange. Anyway.

Wink
Post 07 Aug 2017, 10:06
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17276
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
revolution wrote:
Suppose I was to create a "Universe" inside my computer with some simulation software. ...
In that case, every single move, thought, and memory fragment of every single being within the simulation is unambiguously recorded. You, the creator/programmer, may not bother to find out such minute details -- but you can if you want. So, you are omnipotent, as far as the simulation is concerned; you just choose not to exercise your power.

To me, an eternal creator that is not omnipotent sounds kind of strange. Anyway.
My computer does not record everything. There is no memory snapshot taken every clock cycle. Where would it store it all anyway? The requirements in both bandwidth and storage would be enormous.

Also, it doesn't make sense that I could be omnipotent with regard to the simulation, even in principle. Sure, I could examine every individual bit state, maybe. But when there are trillions of them it would take a very long time. And I wouldn't have any understanding of what any of it means. By the time I've spent a few minutes reading ones and zeros (or hex, or bitmaps, or whatever) I would have forgotten the beginning and become bored. It would be too complex and tedious.
Post 07 Aug 2017, 10:35
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
i got RM 100, how much do i need save every month if i want to have RM 200 by the end of year 2017?

how to know how many month i still have? december, november, october, september, august,
i got 5 months before reaching end of year 2017,

how much i need to save? RM 200 - RM 100 = RM 100,

how much each month i need to save, RM 100 / 5 = RM 20,

does this kind of law, logic need creator?

1 + 1 = 2, if we disregard all the human made number symbol, such calculation still exists, and probably don't need creator,

what is the purpose 50 divided by 5 equal 10?
Post 07 Aug 2017, 11:40
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
My computer does not record everything. There is no memory snapshot taken every clock cycle. Where would it store it all anyway? The requirements in both bandwidth and storage would be enormous.
Absolutely! That's why the notion that we live in a simulation is extremely unlikely. A "computer" that exactly simulates the reality we are facing -- including all the microscopic phenomena like interactions between particles and quantum fluctuations -- is just the reality itself!

Assuming that such a supercomputer does exist, the creator/programmer can surely do whatever he/she/it wants with the simulation. In that sense, the creator/programmer is omnipotent.

Wink
Post 07 Aug 2017, 12:22
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
1 + 1 = 2, if we disregard all the human made number symbol, such calculation still exists, and probably don't need creator
You should watch Lucy (2014):

One plus one doesn't equal two
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1QiCPCgXJk

That's why YONG wants to be the sole time controller!

Wink
Post 07 Aug 2017, 12:26
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
YONG wrote:
Absolutely! That's why the notion that we live in a simulation is extremely unlikely. A "computer" that exactly simulates the reality we are facing -- including all the microscopic phenomena like interactions between particles and quantum fluctuations -- is just the reality itself!

Assuming that such a supercomputer does exist, the creator/programmer can surely do whatever he/she/it wants with the simulation. In that sense, the creator/programmer is omnipotent.
Who said the outside Universe is made up of the same stuff? Look at our video game simulations. They're not made up of atoms or molecules or elementary particles. They're made of vertices and triangles/faces and so on. They certainly look the same macroscopically, but they don't actually function in the same way. And of course, you won't be recording every single bit, even given this "simplification". You can if you want to, making you omnipotent in a way and omniscient, but it doesn't mean you will (boredom most likely).

Now even if the Universe was made up of the same "stuff", it doesn't take a computer the size of the entire Universe to simulate another. You could procedurally compute particles only when needed (this does tend to imply more that "humans are special" in the sense that we could be in a Matrix, i.e. we have an "outside self" that uses an "avatar" in this world; i.e. we're a "player"). Such procedural computations don't take that much at all.

Even assuming Planck Length precision (which is insane!), I'm fairly certain a 512-bit floating point number has enough precision for the entire Universe. So all calculations can be done on such numbers in the "supercomputer".

512-bit may seem like a lot but it's very realistic/attainable with a normal-sized supercomputer, not one of the size of the entire Universe.

PS: Of course it could run slow Wink but who said the system is realtime Smile (we, inside of the simulation, won't perceive it running slow obviously)
Post 07 Aug 2017, 12:40
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
I'm fairly certain a 512-bit floating point number has enough precision for the entire Universe.
Even a 4096-bit floating point number can't represent the EXACT value of 0.1. Refer to:

Why 0.1 Does Not Exist In Floating-Point
http://www.exploringbinary.com/why-0-point-1-does-not-exist-in-floating-point/

Forget about doing a simulation of the observable universe -- let alone the entire universe.

Wink
Post 08 Aug 2017, 02:58
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
If you can show me 0.1 in the "real world" then maybe it will matter that you can't represent it with standard binary floating point number. And even the inability to have a precise exact representation doesn't mean you can't get close enough that it's impossible to measure a difference.

But, there are other methods to deal with number representations. There is no need to use binary floating point everywhere.
Post 08 Aug 2017, 06:58
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
If you can show me 0.1 in the "real world" ...
No more "real versus unreal" nonsense, please. Or I will shut you down, again!

Evil or Very Mad
Post 08 Aug 2017, 07:31
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