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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Initially, I thought that you were arguing for the sake of arguing. When we, the forum members, look at your furious exchanges with system error in some other threads, we can see part of your personality -- you like arguing ... a lot.

Now, after a number of not-so-furious exchanges with you, I actually want to give you some credits. You are NOT fooling around; in fact, you are making serious arguments based on your understanding of physics.

Back to the question.
Furs wrote:
I don't think you understand the fact that space (well rather spacetime, but let's keep it at space) was created itself (in the Big Bang). ... So the chance of random fluctuations creating spacetime is zero since it makes no sense.
I understand your argument. But it seems that you ignored the most important piece of the puzzle: energy.

Energy is the universal currency in physics. In fact, matter is nothing but an ensemble of energy.

Void (or emptiness) always exists, which possesses energy.

When I talked about "the large-scale version" of quantum fluctuations, I was referring to the random fluctuations in void (or emptiness).

It is such a fluctuation that gives rise to "creation", which in turn gives rise to space(time) and matter/antimatter.

Think about it. How can such a fluctuation have a "purpose"?

Refer to:

Can space be created or destroyed?
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/192510/can-space-be-created-or-destroyed

Wink
Post 27 Jul 2017, 02:30
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
Yeah but how can void always exist when void is made up of space? If you have no space, there's no void and so no innate energy or fluctuations. In fact, the whole "random fluctuations always exist" is unlikely to be true to begin with. That means sleepsleep is right and perpetual energy exists... everywhere Confused

I think they only exist due to stuff like Cosmic Microwave Background or Dark Energy or whatever other theories (personally, I'm not too fond of Dark Energy, it feels like a random cop out, something more elegant must be the reason IMO).

Either way the fluctuations had to start from somewhere -- like a Domino Effect needs an initial outside "push" or whatever. Of course that is likely the source of the Big Bang which also created space. But if not, what is your definition of void? If not a range of space? (or how can you have void with no space?)

(oh and as for system error stuff, furious is one way to describe it, I just can't stand big mouthed kids, they piss me off even in real life; you know what I mean, not his rare "proper" arguments)
Post 27 Jul 2017, 10:42
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
Yeah but how can void always exist when void is made up of space? If you have no space, there's no void and so no innate energy or fluctuations.
No, no, no.

By "void", I was referring to the state or scenario of having no space at all and obviously having no matter/antimatter as well. There is absolutely nothing but energy. Note that energy does not need space to exist -- just think about the singularity of a black hole.

Wink
Post 27 Jul 2017, 12:06
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
Oh I see, I was using the definition such as from the so-called "supervoid" in space. Black holes are kind of wacky I admit, always cool to read stuff about them Wink Your mention of void made me look for stuff and I found this: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/6589/do-black-holes-have-energy

Apparently, they don't have energy by means of mass (i.e. what's inside of them) since that can never reach "our spacetime" (but rather by spinning and such). Well obviously this isn't truly known, just what is said there.

While we can't really see inside a black hole, we can speculate based on other things with gravity. If you know the Shell Theorem, then inside the black hole space can definitely exist. If you have a sufficiently large spherical shell then you can literally live inside a black hole (as perceived from the outside) without even knowing. Heck, the whole Universe could be one (but kind of awkward since it keeps expanding) if the shell lies beyond the observable Universe.

Of course, in this case, the black hole beyond the Event Horizon definitely has "space". I'd argue that even the Singularity has space (keep in mind at the center of the singularity, there is no gravity at all -- just like in the center of the Earth, since you have equal amounts in every direction, net force on you is zero). Thus there must be a point in space, even if just one Planck Length in size, where there is no gravity within the Black Hole. (and thus it must have at least 1 point of space). I consider a "point" as the smallest "addressable" unit (which is a planck length^3; which is incredibly small btw, 10^-35; basically if Planck's Length was 1mm, the radius of a Proton would be like 100 light years or something like that, lol)

But I guess this can't be known Sad
Post 27 Jul 2017, 14:01
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8902
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sleepsleep
28th July 2017

- i was f. by windows 10 home single language literally,

- i couldn't find where the location for win 10 x64 single language creators update 1703, so in stead of trying harder to find this wim file, i opt to a short-cut, install 1607,

- and shit hits the fan, Wink

- basically, 1607 is almost unusable without a heavy download from the internet, i leave it for 5 hours and it still doesn't f. solve what shits should be downloaded inside this laptop,

- sigh, Crying or Very sad

- i diskpart, dism again with 1703 after i reach home, and luckily, it downloads only for a half hour and it is working,

- and you don't have defer upgrade in 1703, basically, unless your using win10 enterprise, otherwise, prepare to receive more unexpected shits in coming months,

- windows 10, this shit should be blocked, :angry:
Post 28 Jul 2017, 02:05
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17279
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
- windows 10, this shit should be blocked, :angry:
No one is forcing you to install it, right? I recommend WinXPSP2, the best OS ever. Laughing
Post 28 Jul 2017, 02:08
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8902
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sleepsleep
revolution wrote:
sleepsleep wrote:
- windows 10, this shit should be blocked, :angry:
No one is forcing you to install it, right? I recommend WinXPSP2, the best OS ever. Laughing

you know i am not installing this shit for my own use right, Laughing
i have xpsp3 runs inside virtualbox, Smile host running linux,

default installation came with new laptop is 1607 too, plus abundance of adswares and almost useless oem software,

crossed fingers, alternative will come, revolution will come, and windows 10 will go away, :devil:
Post 28 Jul 2017, 02:15
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
you know i am not installing this shit for my own use right, Laughing
So, you are installing that shit for your client. Right?

Wink
Post 28 Jul 2017, 03:59
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
revolution will come, and windows 10 will go away, :devil:
Nope. revolution will never show up, and Windows 10 will be around for a very, very long time!

Be a responsible I.T. professional. Ask your clients to switch to Linux.

Wink
Post 28 Jul 2017, 04:03
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
Oh I see, I was using the definition such as from the so-called "supervoid" in space.
Well, "supervoid" is a particularly-cold region in the universe, and obviously, it is in space(time).

I better call the "void" that I am talking about the "pre-big bang void", where there is absolutely nothing but energy. In fact, I don't even want to use the word "energy" but rather the term "instability".

So, the "pre-big bang void" has one intrinsic property, instability, which gives rise to a random, large-scale fluctuation -- the big bang.

Wink
Post 28 Jul 2017, 04:21
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
... Thus there must be a point in space, even if just one Planck Length in size, where there is no gravity within the Black Hole.
Theoretically, a point does not take up any space. Haha ...

Seriously, the idea is that all the matter must have been squashed by the insanely-huge gravity and thus only the fundamental constituent of matter remains, which is energy. All the energy is concentrated at the singularity, and by mass–energy equivalence, observers outside the event horizon can't tell the difference because they are just experiencing the same gravitational pull as the one they would expect from an insanely-massive singularity.

Wink
Post 28 Jul 2017, 04:46
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
You'd be right, if Quantum Mechanics didn't exist the way it does. One of the most important parts of it is that the Universe is quantized, so a point does take up space (well more like things can't be squashed more than this I think) and there's a limit to how small anything can be (though it's incredibly small).
Post 28 Jul 2017, 11:45
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17279
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Furs wrote:
... and there's a limit to how small anything can be ...
That's where the word "atom" came from: Meaning it can't be divided further. But then someone discovered atoms were made from even smaller units of electrons, protons and neutrons. And later someone else discovered that even those can be broken down further into bosons and fermions and a whole menagerie of particles. So what is the next stage? Perhaps again we will find that these un-divisible units can in fact be subdivided further?

Maybe the matrix code is being rewritten on-the-fly as we progress. So any understanding we might come to now can suddenly be wrong when the people running the matrix decide to load in new rules for the physics of particles and forces.
Post 28 Jul 2017, 12:02
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
You'd be right, if Quantum Mechanics didn't exist the way it does. One of the most important parts of it is that the Universe is quantized, so a point does take up space (well more like things can't be squashed more than this I think) and there's a limit to how small anything can be (though it's incredibly small).
Well, we need a theory that reconciles Quantum Mechanics with General Relativity in order to describe what is actually going on at the singularity of a black hole. Until we have such a "unified" theory, all we can do is make some educated guesses.

Refer to:

Is time quantized?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-time-quantized-in-othe/

Wink
Post 28 Jul 2017, 12:06
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
So what is the next stage? Perhaps again we will find that these un-divisible units can in fact be subdivided further?
I tend to believe that the so-called "elementary" particles can be "split" into even smaller units. For example, there is experimental evidence that the intrinsic properties of an electron can be split. Refer to:

Electron Splits into Quasiparticles
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electron-splits-into-quasiparticles/

How electrons split: New evidence of exotic behaviors
https://phys.org/news/2014-12-electrons-evidence-exotic-behaviors.html

Perhaps the notions of Planck time and Planck length are not that meaningful.

Wink
Post 28 Jul 2017, 12:27
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
But subdividing particles is not what Planck's constants are about; they're about the speed of light and when quantum effects rule any meaning of classical spacetime (so we can say they're quantized -- same happens in a computer when you are out of bits because floats are quantized assuming no denormals; the last bit of the significand will seem random due to truncation and arbitrary interactions which cannot be calculated (since they're truncated, you cannot use math anymore); you'd need the exact algorithm/number of bits and every single interaction ever with that number to be able to predict it, which is impossible)

Particles, compared to Planck Length, are absolutely huge. It's like comparing a millimeter with a galaxy. Wink
Post 28 Jul 2017, 14:11
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8902
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sleepsleep
YONG wrote:
sleepsleep wrote:
you know i am not installing this shit for my own use right, Laughing
So, you are installing that shit for your client. Right?

Wink

i can't force others to consume what i prefer, Embarassed
i could only decide 50/50 what i intended to consume for my own self, Laughing

YONG wrote:
sleepsleep wrote:
revolution will come, and windows 10 will go away, :devil:
Nope. revolution will never show up, and Windows 10 will be around for a very, very long time!



Wink

win 95 gone, win 98 gone, win 2k gone, win xp nearly gone, win vista gone, win 7 nearly gone, win 8 gone, win 8.1 gone,

statistically speak, win 10 will gone too, maybe after a few years, should gone by 2022, hopefully, Laughing

YONG wrote:
Be a responsible I.T. professional. Ask your clients to switch to Linux.

need to define what are responsible, and professional, Laughing

i think, if we expand on this idea, this is actually an issue that human on earth is facing right now,
what is decision, and how to make decision, Idea

there are so many ideas, suggestions, etc thoughts, but how the logic to come up with single direction (assume resources are so limited)
Post 28 Jul 2017, 20:41
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
revolution wrote:

That's where the word "atom" came from: Meaning it can't be divided further

is there actually a limit on how tiny a thing could get? in term of mathematics or whatever knowledge that associated with this limit?

is it possible for such limit to exists?

everything is possible because space exists, but what is space?
Post 28 Jul 2017, 20:54
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17279
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
is there actually a limit on how tiny a thing could get?
We don't know. Maybe, maybe not.
sleepsleep wrote:
in term of mathematics or whatever knowledge that associated with this limit?
In mathematics there is no limit either large or small. The numbers just keep going. This was proved many centuries ago.
Post 28 Jul 2017, 20:59
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
is there actually a limit on how tiny a thing could get? in term of mathematics or whatever knowledge that associated with this limit?
In mathematics, there is no limit on such a dividing process. In physics, however, cosmologists tend to believe that the Planck length is the smallest length a "thing" can get, but there is no evidence to back up such a claim.

Wink
Post 29 Jul 2017, 05:27
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