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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
But I think that overall it will create more jobs and more opportunities for better things.
Sometimes I really hate being the "smart" guy that corrects others' misconceptions. Anyway.

Refer to:

How Technology Is Destroying Jobs (MIT Tech Review)
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/515926/how-technology-is-destroying-jobs/

9 Dying Occupations -- Thanks To Technology
https://www.aol.com/article/2011/10/07/9-skilled-occupations-being-killed-by-technology/20040676/

Wink
Post 02 Jun 2017, 09:45
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17271
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revolution
YONG: Yes. Like I mentioned such things were also said in the past when computers were first around. And all those "smart" researchers were wrong. How do you know those two links you posted are 100% correct in their predictions? I'm sure if I searched I could find links that say the opposite. It proves nothing. The real test is to see what actually happens. I might be wrong in my opinion, I might be right, but to say that you are correcting me is premature at this point in time.
Post 02 Jun 2017, 10:23
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution:

Nope. I don't think that it is premature to say so.

Credibility is the keyword here.

My first link is a tech review by researchers of MIT, a highly-reputable research institute.

Your reasoning is based on the causal arguments of an anonymous mod who has a track record of intentionally tricking other forum members into visiting his/her fake website.

So, which "opinion" is more credible?

No more "only time will/can tell" excuse, please.

Wink
Post 02 Jun 2017, 12:12
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
revolution wrote:
YONG: Yes. Like I mentioned such things were also said in the past when computers were first around. And all those "smart" researchers were wrong. How do you know those two links you posted are 100% correct in their predictions? I'm sure if I searched I could find links that say the opposite. It proves nothing. The real test is to see what actually happens. I might be wrong in my opinion, I might be right, but to say that you are correcting me is premature at this point in time.
You know, if the past was always an indication for the future, there would be no open stock market since everyone would know exactly when a crash or bull market will happen and no trading would take place.

Absolute proof cannot exist, by definition, because no human is omniscient. It doesn't mean that all things are equal. Can you prove you won't win the lottery if you buy a ticket today? No, but it's highly likely that you won't, so it's perfectly justifiable to hold that position, even if you end up winning and prove yourself wrong.

The human brain has limited capacity to learn or process information. That is a fact. Technology evolves at a much faster rate than brain does naturally, so this is a very likely outcome. It's why arguments exist and convince people. Proofs don't need arguments, because they're proofs. Wink Nobody sane will need "to be convinced" of proofs (if they are proofs), so idk why you speak of proof. They will instead "accept" proofs as there's no doubt to be convinced of.

But that's fine, you still find it a weak argument and prefer to rely on past indications instead of logical scenario.

I doubt that in the past there have been people who are at the forefront of technology/automation and other such, such as Elon Musk or Zuckerberg, and yet they all say the same thing. I guess they're all wrong then.


That is, unless we find a way to affordably augment our brains with more computing power. I don't care what opinion is credible or not, I draw my own conclusions, I only mentioned those people because it seems revolution cares of credibility instead of thinking a bit what could happen and why (because again, human brain has limited capacity).

Think about it, if it takes a human to learn/train when he is young 3 years or more (being generous), what will happen when technology gets to a point where it will advance faster than this...? You will not have simple "jobs" anymore that require less training or learning, because they will have all been replaced already.

Instead, the amount of things you'll have to learn will get bigger and bigger, well, at least until the singularity happens -- at which point you will never be able to learn anything to be "useful" since an AI will learn faster. You will always lose the race.

Look today even, it seems there's a lack of people for complicated jobs like low level software development, but it only seems that way because we need it more and more, since there's fewer and fewer other jobs. (you can think of HLLs for other, simpler programming tasks, as "automation" too; thing is people have to work less).

So why don't people who lose their jobs become software developers or other sought jobs compared to what they had? Maybe because they lack training and can't learn it fast enough? Or are too old to learn programming? You can't just clap your hands and find a new job. It's not the loss of jobs that is the issue but how fast that happens.

Now I find automation a perfectly good concept. What's wrong is current human systems in place.
Post 02 Jun 2017, 12:27
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Furs wrote:

Instead, the amount of things you'll have to learn will get bigger and bigger, well, at least until the singularity happens -- at which point you will never be able to learn anything to be "useful" since an AI will learn faster. You will always lose the race.

Now I find automation a perfectly good concept. What's wrong is current human systems in place.

agree

if the power of controlling AI, automation reside on people / nation who concern with earthlings, everyone of us might and could enjoy the life on earth in a more beautiful and plentiful way,

if reside on people / nation who simply want to create more control, more slaves, more centralized power, i would dare to say, you could see 6 billions beggars on earth very soon,
Post 02 Jun 2017, 21:11
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
Absolute proof cannot exist
We have been through this before, I guess. Refer to:

Seven Bridges of Königsberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Bridges_of_K%C3%B6nigsberg

Wink
Post 03 Jun 2017, 02:45
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
if the power of controlling AI, automation reside on people / nation who ...
What if the AI gains self-awareness? Such an idea has been explored in many sci-fi blockbusters; unfortunately, the end-results are always disastrous.

The Red Queen is emerging! Watch out!

Wink
Post 03 Jun 2017, 02:48
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
YONG wrote:
We have been through this before, I guess. Refer to:

Seven Bridges of Königsberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Bridges_of_K%C3%B6nigsberg

Wink
Well, I wasn't talking about logical/mathematical proof, but "factual" proof. It's unfortunate that they share the same word in english because they are not the same thing at all. Absolute factual proof is impossible unless the entity is omniscient. In math, the rules are clear and thus we can be considered "omniscient" in respect to those rules. So absolute proof in math can exist.

To show this is easy, you just have to make it fail in a hypothetical scenario (which can exist) and it cannot be absolute proof anymore since by definition that makes it, well, not a proof. So it depends on a certain tolerance level that humans pick arbitrarily.

I gave you the lottery example but, let's go with something more hypothetical. Let's say you have proof that someone did a certain action because you caught them on video. Let's also assume, for the sake of this example, that it is physically impossible with human technology to "manipulate" a video (which is far from reality, but I'm being generous).

Would you say such a video is absolute proof? If not, how would absolute proof look like? You can come up with anything and I'll come with a scenario in which it is proven wrong.

For example, how do you know we're not in the Matrix and the system was a glitch or the video was manipulated by the system or a higher being? Or maybe manipulated with alien technology? Since the proof is absolute, this means it cannot (absolutely) be wrong, no matter what. Thus the proof can't be absolute since it would fail in a specific hypothetical scenario which can exist. Wink
Post 03 Jun 2017, 11:03
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
I wasn't talking about logical/mathematical proof, but "factual" proof.
You need to be very specific of you say; otherwise, you will give readers the impression that you are a non-technical person. You don't like "talking" to non-technical forum members, do you?

Wink
Post 03 Jun 2017, 12:04
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
i discovered a few thoughts lately,

1. there if no official way for human to vent their anger, their jealous, etc feelings,

human might need a official protocol, how to direct disagreement, conflict, etc, and every human on earth must read and understand, the official way to send agreement or disagreement,

2. why there is only one kind of honking sound for car? there should be 3 kind of honking style, a:fuck you, b: thank you, c:excuse me

i got chance to play with 3 units, IBM x3550 M4 Laughing doing some contract job in large factory, guess the first thing i did?

- reset megaraid configuration Laughing

3. my outlook ost problem still there, i haven't got the motivation to solve it, i found some software, download them already, but haven't try if they really work as advertised Embarassed
Post 03 Jun 2017, 17:30
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17271
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
2. why there is only one kind of honking sound for car? there should be 3 kind of honking style, a:fuck you, b: thank you, c:excuse me
  1. Fuck you: HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONK
  2. Thank you: bip-bip
  3. Excuse me: bip
Post 03 Jun 2017, 19:04
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
1. there if no official way for human to vent their anger, their jealous, etc feelings,
Yes, there are. revolution vents his/her frustration and/or anger on the Windows 10 thread; you vent yours on this thread. Some terrorists just vented theirs on the innocent people who happened to be in the wrong place (London Bridge and Borough Market) at the wrong time (Saturday night). Sad

Wink
Post 04 Jun 2017, 02:16
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
3. my outlook ost problem still there, i haven't got the motivation to solve it, i found some software, download them already, but haven't try if they really work as advertised Embarassed
The downloaded software may contain a computer virus, worm, or other malware. Don't try it.

Wink
Post 04 Jun 2017, 02:19
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
YONG wrote:
Some terrorists just vented theirs on the innocent people who happened to be in the wrong place (London Bridge and Borough Market) at the wrong time (Saturday night). Sad
What if one of those people was a mass murderer psychopath or one who would have become one in the near future and kill hundreds? Razz (just nitpicking on philosophical questions as it pertains to this thread, not condoning the terrorists, just in case you misunderstood)
Post 04 Jun 2017, 11:16
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
What if one of those people was a mass murderer psychopath or one who would have become one in the near future and kill hundreds? Razz
I qualified the noun "people" with the adjective "innocent". So, the first condition in your "if" statement is excluded. The second condition in your "if" statement refers to some future event that may or may not occur. So, it is impossible to give any meaningful prediction of the repercussions -- like a wise forum member once said, "No-one is omniscient."

Wink
Post 04 Jun 2017, 12:04
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1470
Furs
No, I meant to ask whether you'd be ok with such a "sacrifice" if you knew one of them was a psychopath who would end up killing more down the road.

When I said "if" I implied it as if you knew about it (but couldn't do anything about it though), what your reaction would be Wink (as an example inspired from a documentary about nazis, imagine you know one of the children in a school is Hitler and the school gets bombed, what your reaction would be to that situation; I'm not asking about any "action" you can do about it since that would be cheating)
Post 04 Jun 2017, 12:41
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Furs wrote:
... if you knew one of them was a psychopath who would end up killing more down the road.
I would give the authorities an anonymous heads-up. Other than that, I would do nothing.

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 01:53
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
nobody could know absolutely what changes will derived by current changes, not even god or etc brand,

percentage of possibility will help greatly here,

we could put this into a coding function example, there are lots of functions, if you detected a function that will cause blue screen, you will write it, rewrite it, or modify it, so that it could act properly,

so the idea, every conscious is function, and they got to return valid result, perhaps, every human got a or more objectives by default,

every function works differently, so we can't define exact objective for everybody,

perhaps, a psychopath is designed to behave like that, hitler is not a mistake, etc, they just perform their function on earth,

who could inspect the code? who got the authority to recode or just press delete?

i got a thought today early morning,

we always thought and believe everybody entitled to live on earth, entitled to breathe, entitled to freedom,

but, if you try outside the box, perhaps,

we really need to earn the chances to live on earth, to breathe oxygen, we been taking the conscious living for granted, and we been exploiting earth for so long,

we are cancer on earth, no doubt, keep on wasting resources, and promote destruction
Post 05 Jun 2017, 02:55
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
nobody could know absolutely what changes will derived by current changes, not even god or etc brand,
Believers would definitely disagree!

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 03:32
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
we really need to earn the chances to live on earth
I used to support the notion of universal human rights. Now, I would say that a small fraction of the population really do not deserve the right to live. The world will be better off without such hypocrites, psychopaths, extremists, or whatever you call them. Sad but true.

Wink
Post 05 Jun 2017, 03:46
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