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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
neville wrote:
Here in NZ afaik the loan sharks (and banks a.k.a."financial institutions") have to disclose the true interest rate and the FINANCE RATE (including all fees) that the borrower will pay, but that's about it. No limits. Quite uncivilised.
No limits on true interest rates?! Shocked

I believe that HK tops the list of countries by economic freedom. It seems that NZ is not far behind!

Refer to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_economic_freedom

Wink
Post 24 Jan 2017, 07:45
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
neville wrote:
Usury was originally defined as lending money with ANY non-zero positive interest rate i.e. you could lend a man some money, but charging interest on the loan was FORBIDDEN.


maybe negative interest rate is "FORBIDDEN" too ? Laughing Laughing Laughing not so sure,

imo, lending people monies always come with risks, yes, risks, in fact, very huge risks because the lender will basically turn into a begger hoping the person pay back those loan, (ask anyone who have experience lending monies to others, friends, good friends, relatives, family members Laughing )

so, only idiot, or really stupid, or really wealthy, or really innocent person, will lend you one thousand and demand you pay back one thousand back, after 1 year, 10 years or take your time?

now it seems like those books asking people to become idiot, Idea in fact, the islamic banks charge more than 100% > 300% interest of principal loan amount, Laughing Laughing Laughing , but they named it under different arabic words, lmfao,

basically they use the following logic, Idea
you want to buy this house, islamic bank will buy for you at the price RM 130,000, then islamic bank sell this house to you for RM 400,000, and you will pay monthly installation for 30 years, equal RM 1,111 every month. Laughing Laughing Laughing

the main issue is certainly, you can't decide or negotiate what price islamic bank gonna sell that house to you, Shocked

they cunningly change the interest to profit, lmfao, Laughing to skip the wrath of their f i ,,,

of course, what is allowable profit margin, what are the reasonable pricing methods, etc, let me ponder and i will share my views in following posts, i hope my dreams insight me to a better solution and understanding


@ford,
it is good to disagree, and when we do it in a very gentleman / gentlegirl, civilized method, i believe it will makes us deeper our understanding to different views, Idea

i will use the analogy of os maintaining the memory usage by each application, or the cpu processing queue,
limit because memory is very limited, finite,
so what the os should do when an application fully allocated its shares of memories and demand more, somehow if you let it continue to allocate, we will have bad crash for sure in the next moment,

thats the reason i promote limit as one of the solution to 1% control 99% wealth,

ford wrote:
With that said, the default nature of man is one of complete poverty. No shelter, no food, no clothing, and certainly no manufactured goods. As such, everything you have is the result of someone's labor.

this is very good actually, i agree totally,

and wish to raise one point, it is about humanity, what makes a human a human,
it is because we are human, and we are conscious, and that we aware what other human basically needs, we feel the basic needs of others,

when we see someone we don't know, begging / signaling us for food, it doesn't have to be someone, it could be a cat, a dog, or etc animals, we will give, and we don't bother about payment, it is an act that more to kindness, more to benevolence,

those basic needs i mentioned before, are basic needs needed almost by any human on earth,
basic house equal a simple house, not condominium with infinite pool, not bungalow, semi-d, or terrace, just a simple shelter to rest and put your belongings,

could you have a simple shelter? the answer is big NO, Laughing because they DON'T sell and nobody sell simple shelter with land, Idea
one could certainly build a simple shelter anywhere, but please be prepared to have it disappear anytime, tomorrow, next week or next month, Laughing

i believe humanity means, to provide the most basic needs in the most basic form to another human,

> You are now saying that that person should then what? If that person were, say, Warren Buffett,
idk actually, maybe warren buffett also don't know, Laughing
but allow me to suggest warren buffett, the follow the principal of humanity, by providing humanity with the most basic needs in the most basic form, and probably this is what warren buffett been doing for so long,

ford wrote:
As for the comments after yours about predatory lending, if the interest rate is known before the loan is made, then I do not see what the problem would be. Is the borrower stupid? Probably. Is there a moral issue here? Maybe. Should it be outlawed? No. If you think it should be outlawed,

please allow me to re-think and re-understand, as i mentioned previously, it is ill-logic to have loan monies paid with monies, it will NEVER work in long term, because under such scheme, the bank will own everything, it just a matter of time,
the ill-logic about loan interest, the somebody must print 76% of every loan amount in the next 30 years to just maintain current economic situation,

ford wrote:
As for the printing of money that you mentioned, the current monetary systems/policies that are in place in most nations are criminal. Unfortunately, it is the government that commits this particular set of criminal acts. Governments are, by design, exempt from most laws they create and enforce.

agree,
Post 24 Jan 2017, 16:13
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
ring0 wrote:

I am not often to post - particularly on this section of the board but today is my birthday so I will make an exception.

happy birthday to you,
Post 24 Jan 2017, 16:14
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ford



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 102
ford
@sleepsleep,

> limit because memory is very limited, finite

Yes. Resources are finite. Human wants/needs are infinite. The more scarce a resource and higher its demand, the higher the price will be, thus limiting its over-consumption. As any good/service becomes too expensive, a competitor will enter the market to undercut that price and grab some market share. When this does not happen, it is usually due to government interference (BigOil, BigAgro, BigPharma, telcos, etc are all kept in place via government assistance, and they actively bribe politicians to keep themselves in power). Those goods that are plentiful should be cheap. The USA produces enough food each year to feed the entire human population, but due to the Department of Agriculture much of that food is set on fire to keep food prices artificially high. So, could all humans have food for nearly no cost? Yes. Why can they not? Government corruption. Why does internet cost so much? In the USA, it's because telcos are granted regional monopolies by local governments. They then sue anyone who attempts to change that as they have a contract with the government (Google Fiber is great example of someone getting sued for attempting to change the situation). You are arguing for top-down organization which necessarily means government organization and you expect this to be able to fix things... it never will. It will only make things worse. Is it sad that many cannot afford the basics? Sure. Is there any better solution? No.

> in a democracy the government is an agent of the people

In a democracy, the government is theoretically an agent of 50% of the people plus one extra person to make a "majority". This means that 50% of the people minus one person are fucked. Also, you are assuming that once elected anyone in the government ever acts in the best interest of the population... I do not think that that is true.

Empirically, I would say that members of the governmental class always act in their own interests.

Also, merely because a majority thinks something does not make it right or true.
Post 25 Jan 2017, 01:15
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
ford wrote:
In a democracy, the government is theoretically an agent of 50% of the people plus one extra person to make a "majority".
Really? Rolling Eyes

The results of a recent election suggested that one needed only 46% of the votes to beat an opponent that had 2.9 million more votes.

Refer to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016

Wink


Last edited by YONG on 25 Jan 2017, 04:53; edited 1 time in total
Post 25 Jan 2017, 03:01
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ford



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 102
ford
@YONG, the USA is not a democracy. The USA is a federation with democratic processes. The idea in this case is to balance the power of states and population, much the same way the US legislature is bicameral and balances population (House of Representatives) against states (Senate). However, that still doesn't work because the USA is more similar to an oligarchy than anything else. It is typically the wishes of a monied elite willing to bribe the government that sees its will enacted regardless of what the people vote for. My comments on democracy were meant to illustrate the pitfalls of majoritarian systems, and in particular the idea of "majority" rule.

EDIT: the post you quoted was in response to the usage of the word "democracy" and the associated sentiments of majority rule. please also note that I prefaced my description with "theoretically".
Post 25 Jan 2017, 03:46
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
ford wrote:
the USA is not a democracy
You are probably right on this. Under the new administration, the federal government is quickly turning into a big fat institution that transfers interests from the general public into the pockets of those in powers.

I look forward to seeing the great wall that stands on the Mexico-U.S. border!

Wink
Post 25 Jan 2017, 05:10
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
ford wrote:
As any good/service becomes too expensive, a competitor will enter the market to undercut that price and grab some market share.
You know that's not how it works. Any reasonable competition requires a lot of research and investments, that a competitor is simply not likely to show up against a monopoly.

Unfortunately, most products are not like software. Average Joe can't simply start competing with his PC in his garage. He doesn't lack just money, he lacks production facilities and assets.

So pray tell me, how would you compete with e.g. Intel for microprocessors? Or NVIDIA? Or AMD? Or anyone who's already established? If you can't, then what makes you think anyone else can show up? Even assuming you have all the knowledge in the world to design a CPU.

Yeah, you can compete with Microsoft for software, because well... it's software. Rest of the world isn't.

There's a reason there's no such thing as "Free Hardware Foundation" (open-source CPUs or whatever bring absolutely nothing, I want to see them as popular as GNU software is against Microsoft etc... not gonna happen, you can barely get one lmao)
Post 25 Jan 2017, 17:23
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ford



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 102
ford
@Furs,

Competition with processor manufacturers: ARM (any design company can outsource manufacturing to a fab company until such time as they accumulate enough wealth to compete).

"all the knowledge in the world to design a CPU", there are many non-megacorp CPU designs available already btw.

The decline of the U.S. Steel monopoly was due directly to competition. Cornelius Vanderbilt made much of his fortune by breaking early shipping monopolies. He wasn't exactly the most virtuous guy though, so perhaps not a good example. Most monopolies are either created or supported by governments. Those that are not typically were simply first to market and their dominance erodes over time. Where it does not, we typically see either cartels/mafias, government regulation, and/or government enforcement aiding the monopoly's continued existence.

Addressing "research and investment", many young people come up with brilliant solutions to problems that are simply bought by entrenched interests. Were this not the case, they'd need only to secure funding. This can come from angel investment, crowd sourcing, or an IPO.

The biggest thing limiting competition in the CPU market is consumer apathy and lack of knowledge. People simply do not give a shit. This is the same reason that Microsoft remains in the lead over other desktop/laptop OSs, and why Android remains dominant in the mobile space.

When someone is making money hand over fist in a market, to gain funding only requires that you demonstrate to investor that your product/service is good enough for people to buy. All investment is a gamble, but proving interest in the product instead of defining a new market? That represents lower risk than most investments. So, if you came around talking about a smartphone before such a thing existed, it would be a hard sell to an investor. If you came up with a better smartphone now that the smart phone exists? Not as hard a sell. See Jolla.

When it comes to convincing investors, it isn't too hard considering the number of billion dollar IPOs that have occurred in the past few years where the companies in question hadn't posted profit or even produced a product.

I know everyone loves to hate the free market, but "the free market" is merely a quantification of voluntary human interaction, and its alternative is coercion.
Post 26 Jan 2017, 04:00
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
27th January 2017

- i got a few dreams past few days, very impressive, and i couldn't decode them as usual, lol

- let me just share my earlier morning dream, there are 4 person involve, male, whom i don't have any idea who are they,

- not sure if they are standing or sitting, i guess sitting probably, but i saw no chair,

- they sit like this, <(A) (B)> <(C) (D)>, the ">" denote their facing,

- what weird is, (B) and (C) both got 1 short sharp ice spear through his lower lips, and another 1 short sharp ice spear through his right ribs, in fact, i could see a hole on his left ribs,

- (A) and (D) only got sharp ice spear through their ribs, not sure left or right,

- and the very weird thing is, i got sharp ice spear through my lower lips, and i actually feel the coldness of that ice object

- i don't feel scare or fear at that moment, but i could remember exactly, i could really feel the coldness very real

- somehow i bear the situation until the frozen ice spear vaporize,

- now weird thing happy, i woke up

- and my whole body shaking, shivering in cold, is like just coming out from frozen container,

- this shivering happened for around 5 to 10 minutes, totally surreal,

- i went back to continue my nap and after i woke up later, the coldness gone, but such experience is totally first, which mean, i could feel cold in dream, i could actually saw the ice spear vapor in dream,
Post 26 Jan 2017, 16:37
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
ford wrote:
"all the knowledge in the world to design a CPU", there are many non-megacorp CPU designs available already btw.
Indeed, and that's the reason they are just designs and will forever remain that way unless something big happens. (3D printing of circuits at nanometer scales affordable by anyone?)
Post 26 Jan 2017, 17:35
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Silicon Valley billionaires buy underground bunkers preparing for the apocalypse
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/silicon-valley-billionaires-buy-underground-bunkers-apocalypse-california-a7545126.html
Quote:
Tech entrepreneurs fearful artificial intelligence will displace so many jobs there will be a revolt against those responsible

ai is good, and we just need to create positive transition, and there will be no revolt, no need bunkers, no need guns or motorcycles,

too bad, i am not the one holding millions or billions, Laughing Laughing Laughing

but sometime i think, are those people idiots or what, you can't bring anything along after you are dead, Idea lol, you come with nothing and you gone with nothing, Laughing
Post 26 Jan 2017, 17:51
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1471
Furs
You know, when people who made their massive amount of money off this "free market" think the things I was speaking about are a possibility and actually invest a small amount of their wealth into it (shows how serious they are), you realize how fucked up capitalism is.

How is it possible for people to defend capitalism when the very examples of those who profited the most from it shows concern as a possibility for the future?
Post 26 Jan 2017, 21:41
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
sometime i think, are those people idiots or what, you can't bring anything along after you are dead
That's why those idiotic people always try to find ways to be immortal.

Sounds familiar?

Wink
Post 27 Jan 2017, 03:17
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
ai is good
The statement needs a bit of qualification: Dumb AI is good, smart AI is dangerous, and self-aware AI is catastrophic!

Wink
Post 27 Jan 2017, 03:23
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17279
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revolution
Humans (well most of them) are self aware. Does that make humans "catastrophic"? Why should the judgement criteria be different for AI?
Post 27 Jan 2017, 03:33
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
Why should the judgement criteria be different for AI?
I thought that you were a sci-fi fan. Seems that I am wrong.

Red Queen (Resident Evil)
http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Queen_(Resident_Evil)

Skynet (Terminator)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)

HAL 9000 (2001: A Space Odyssey)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_9000

Wink
Post 27 Jan 2017, 03:42
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
Of course, even top-notch scientists share my concern:

Stephen Hawking warns artificial intelligence could end mankind
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30290540

Wink
Post 27 Jan 2017, 04:27
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ford



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 102
ford
> Humans (well most of them) are self aware. Does that make humans "catastrophic"? Why should the judgement criteria be different for AI?

There are quite a few assumptions here.

I would disagree that most humans are self-aware.

I would say that human intelligence is, indeed, catastrophic. We will destroy ourselves and most other life on this planet through nuclear armageddon at some point.

Due to my proceeding two views, the judgement on AI is no different at all.
Post 27 Jan 2017, 05:25
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17279
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
I thought that you were a sci-fi fan.
But you didn't answer the question. Just because some Sci-Fi casts AI as all-powerful and malevolent doesn't mean my computer will suddenly take over the world if I program it to be self-aware.

And besides, my computer has a off-switch and a removable power cord, so shutting it down if it does ever become a problem is easily done.
ford wrote:
I would disagree that most humans are self-aware.
I am surprised by this statement. Even young children know of their own existence as a separate entity from everyone else. I grant you that small babies are not self-aware (yet) but I don't think they form a majority of the population.


Last edited by revolution on 27 Jan 2017, 05:55; edited 1 time in total
Post 27 Jan 2017, 05:52
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