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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
the system force people into slave through bank loan, in fact, you can't buy a house with full cash without getting queried by bank, government, and tax agencies,

in order to secure their house, their life, they have no choice but to work, be it 9 to 5 or any other jobs, they must work if they want to secure their house,

i haven't detail on study loan, vehicle loan, insurance, marriage, etc, but you know exactly, all these will cause more financial burden, making people stuck more inside the system
Well said.

The situation is even harsher here in HK, given the high standard of living. That's why many Hongkongers, myself included, are forced to live in shoebox homes.

Sad but true. Sad

Wink
Post 22 Jan 2017, 03:27
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
i think the situation is very bad, not much people realize that, the idea or concept about loan interest paid with monies is actually very ill-logic,

in the example i posted before,
somebody who bought a property price RM 130,000 paid interest around RM 90,000
interest cost around 76% of your loan amount, RM 117,000

i think this is crazy obvious insane, and this is actually the reason poor become poorer,

this also mean, for every loan approved, the country, the government or etc that handle money printing, need to print 76% of the loan amount for the next 30 years in order to maintain current economy situation, or m1 monies supply,

and the very stupid and bastard thing about this money printing is, all these 76% monies will fucking go to bank,

and eventually bank can buy and own everything,

this thing is so sick and f obvious,
Post 22 Jan 2017, 08:02
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
sleepsleep: If you don't have money to buy a house and you don't want to borrow the money then you can never own a house, ever. And you end up renting for the rest of your life and pay even more money with no return to show for it. So you need to choose; either borrow to buy a house and eventually own it after some years, or rent forever and own nothing. Or maybe you have a third option?
Post 22 Jan 2017, 10:32
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
revolution wrote:
sleepsleep: If you don't have money to buy a house and you don't want to borrow the money then you can never own a house, ever. And you end up renting for the rest of your life and pay even more money with no return to show for it. So you need to choose; either borrow to buy a house and eventually own it after some years, or rent forever and own nothing. Or maybe you have a third option?

very true, thats why i said so
revolution wrote:
sleepsleep wrote:

now the system force you to become slave, work like slave, 9 to 5, etc, to survive, this is wrong,
Only if you let it. No one is forcing you to do anything.


once a human took a bank loan, eg, a 30 years housing loan, s(he) must become slave and work like slave, with no much other options, except to earn monies and pay bank loan shark,

any turbulence/conflict in his or her work, maybe his/her boss is a asshole bastard or etc, s(he) must behave like slave, and tolerate because s(he) got housing loan to pay every month,

s(he) can't lose his/er job because, s(he) got housing loan or other loan to pay,
especially s(he) is less educated, got no degree, no diploma, no certificate, no phd, and not so pretty or handsome,

the system simply takes advantage on such people, poor people, less fortunate people, bully them, enslave them,

define:slave
(n) a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

i want to focus on the words, "forced to obey", basically, that is pretty much what is happening on earth, in 9 to 5, why you need to punch in <9 and punch out > 5?

why you need to code or etc work, that you so unwilling to do, but you still do it, because you are forced indirectly by your loan, you know if you defy the orders, you will be listed in first page during retrenchment,

why you work even at home after 5, because you know you need to prove your value to your master, your company, so they keep you and pay you,

this whole thing is crazy, a life like this is not much different from slave, except, probably, one don't feel so much like they are slave,

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Post 22 Jan 2017, 11:58
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
once a human took a bank loan, eg, a 30 years housing loan, s(he) must become slave and work like slave, with no much other options, except to earn monies and pay bank loan shark,
There is a big difference between a slave and someone the chooses to work. If you want to enjoy the benefits of owning a house then you have to be prepared to work to get those benefits. You can't expect everyone else to build your house and then you never reward them with anything in return.
Post 22 Jan 2017, 13:23
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
revolution wrote:

There is a big difference between a slave and someone the chooses to work.

surely there exists people who are paid and really love doing what they are doing, no doubt about this, but just how many people in this category? i don't have any statistic to back my query, i "guess" it is very less.

revolution wrote:

If you want to enjoy the benefits of owning a house then you have to be prepared to work to get those benefits. You can't expect everyone else to build your house and then you never reward them with anything in return.

i agree with you too, who gonna build a house for you if you don't want to pay him or her something, Laughing Laughing Laughing
i have no issue with paying, exchanging values,

for each house selling price, which already included cost + profit for developer, bank will take another 76% on top of that from you, and housing developer earn > 100% from you,

every loan that housing developer took to develop your house will be charged interest rate, essentially mean, they will pass that charges into your housing price,

ironically, the cost of house, material + labour (not including land) is actually very very less,

so, you don't want anybody to build house for you, you want to buy a container and live inside, but you need a place to put your container right, Idea

and people don't allow you to put things anywhere unless that is your f land, you also don't want people to drag your container away while you go out working or slaving, Cool

so, you want to buy a piece of f land, fence it, and put your container inside, and f live and stay alive,

a piece of f freehold empty land cost you more than RM 100,000 not icluding lawyer fee, water, electricity and etc (in my area)

Furs wrote:
Let me ask you a question so you can see my point. How would you survive if you were born into a city where all land was taken and you couldn't own anything because no money without working?

very true, they will force you into the system, enslave you, when what you want is only f human basic needs,

the system is doing injustice to people, especially poor people, taking advantage on their basic needs, force them into bank loan, convert them into slaves, keep mass under controlled,

did i forget to mention, one could only get bank loan after s(he) is certified slave, Laughing Laughing Laughing

i think i forget to mention this, bank doesn't need to have RM 117,000 in order to loan you RM 117,000, see this Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Post 22 Jan 2017, 21:06
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
sharing
An Economic Hit Man speaks out: John Perkins on how Greece has fallen victim to 'Economic Hit Men'
https://www.sott.net/article/298645-An-Economic-Hit-Man-speaks-out-John-Perkins-on-how-Greece-has-fallen-victim-to-Economic-Hit-Men
Quote:
revealed how international organizations such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, while publicly professing to "save" suffering countries and economies, instead pull a bait-and-switch on their governments: promising startling growth, gleaming new infrastructure projects and a future of economic prosperity - all of which would occur if those countries borrow huge loans from those organizations. Far from achieving runaway economic growth and success, however, these countries instead fall victim to a crippling and unsustainable debt burden.
Post 22 Jan 2017, 23:41
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ford



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 102
ford
@sleepsleep,

> law makers to push such changes into practice

Your answer to being "forced" with no violence is now to force behaviors with violence. You went from no actual use of force to using force and consider this somehow better?

> house and vehicle, usually require a loan from bank

You can rent and split rent with others so no, shelter does not require a loan. A vehicle is required if you do not live in an urban area, but you can buy a used car that is incredibly cheap (I'm in the USA, so cars aren't exactly scarce). Bicycles and other modes of transport are also available at even cheaper prices.
Post 23 Jan 2017, 00:16
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Or choose not to live in a house at all. I seen those people in every city I've been. It is still your choice to live in a house.
Post 23 Jan 2017, 12:19
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
@ford
> Your answer to being "forced" with no violence is now to force behaviors with violence. You went from no actual use of force to using force and consider this somehow better?
sleepsleep wrote:
eg. application that hooks up all the memories available for its self, the point is, operating system must limit memories that could be allocated by applications.

so why os must limit how much memories allocated, used by applications? because there is a need to have and maintain "balance",

the designed system, should strive to seek balance, because only through balance, justice could be provided, and peace could be attained,

if you look at all the stuffs around us, including us, there is some sort of limit bind to each and everything,, definitely some people ask who bind it, why bind it, how bind it, when bind it, and etc questions,

surely, there are exceptions, eg, hack the os and promote yourself into ring 0, but if the after works are done badly, the whole system will just hang, reboot or etc unknown guru meditation,

i don't promote physical force, in fact, i don't like physical or mental force,
it definitely takes a lot of courage, efforts, conscience to weld great powers and limit yourself to not become the transgressor you initially hate,

what i am doing here is, sharing my views, on how things work, its impacts, etc, my views could be wrong, very wrong, in fact, i don't think i am right, and always right, because i can't roll 20 heads consecutively,

through views sharing, understanding, discussion, (with sincere heart) i believe people could realize my views and see the ill-logic part of no limitation wealth, be it individual or companies,

the ill-logic about loan interest, the somebody must print 76% of every loan amount in the next 30 years to just maintain current economic situation,

certainly everything must evolve, be it current system, windows, linux or etc, system, and i could only hope, i did a little bit of small part to make it better, and you know exactly, i don't weld any power to force anything, if things happened, it just mass people realize about something, and mass people want changes, and changes will happen, like BREXIT, like trump, or any other changes in our near future,



> You can rent and split rent with others so no, shelter does not require a loan. A vehicle is required if you do not live in an urban area, but you can buy a used car that is incredibly cheap (I'm in the USA, so cars aren't exactly scarce). Bicycles and other modes of transport are also available at even cheaper prices.

i agree with you, that is one of the many lifestyles one could choose, like revolution said, or choose not to live in a house at all,
i have no argument about what and how lifestyle one wish to choose, everybody have a different situation and those situation demand different changes / lifestyle,

the main issue is, taking bank loan will put these people into slave mode,
the main issue is also, the 1% control the 99% wealth that actually cause a lot of impacts to these 99%
the main issue is also, the accumulation of wealth without limitation already cause so much issues and impacts to the 99%

surely it is easy to say, no one is forcing you to do anything, no one force you to take bank loan, buy house, get married, having babies, etc,

in fact, this is what those pyramid marketers slogan, no one is forcing you to join this ABC pyramid scheme, quick bucks making program, or etc, no one is pointing a gun at your head and force you to enter,

sleepsleep wrote:

but i need to stress one point, there are smart people out there, very smart, very intelligent, very resourceful, elite, etc you want to call them,

and there are also many dumb people out there, very dumb, very stupid, know almost nothing to zero, etc,

in fact they don't need to use gun or anything forceful to influence/to trick/to affect how people think, react, proceed, move on,

i like this quote
unknown wrote:

A civilization is measured by how it treats its weakest members
Post 23 Jan 2017, 16:17
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1493
Furs
@sleepsleep: Exactly, that's what I meant before with ownership too.

I didn't mean to "demonize private property" at all. I simply said that owning too much of it is wrong.

Especially when 1% own 99% of it (or whatever). That's just wrong, and will be even worse as time goes on. After all, money means wealth, and wealth means ownership in this world. A means to transfer ownership and services (buying things, you know?). Couldn't care less about money otherwise.

I never said Communism or Socialism is a better model, either. That one demonizes private property completely, and it would only work if we were in Utopia where there was zero corruption and we had most things done by AIs, so we only worked on intellectual matters (to not get bored, for instance). Since that's not how humanity works, it will never work for us. (maybe communism works for aliens, who knows? it's definitely a model that only works for "advanced" civilization, far above that of human self-interest).

Capitalism is simply bad. It's better than socialism though for humanity, I never meant otherwise. That's due to all human flaws (including corruption) and them wanting a reward (selfish desire). I'm not saying those flaws are wrong, they're just considered "flaws" by people so I used that term. It's just how humans are. But capitalism isn't fair at all. (neither is socialism for that matter)

We'd need a radical change, in my view some sort of technocracy, to have a real fair model. Though, I don't have time to detail it here now, maybe some other time. Obviously I'm only sharing my thoughts, not posting this expecting humanity to change its systems. Razz
Post 23 Jan 2017, 17:56
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
revolution wrote:
Or choose not to live in a house at all.
You could live like Shoichi Yokoi. No need for money, or houses or 9-to-5 and anything. Rolling Eyes
Post 24 Jan 2017, 00:34
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
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Location: New Zealand
neville
There was a Book (actually a collection of books) written a couple of millenia ago which proclaimed that usury is a sin.

Today, usury is still considered to be a sin by the followers of that Book. What has changed, though, is the definition of usury.

Usury was originally defined as lending money with ANY non-zero positive interest rate i.e. you could lend a man some money, but charging interest on the loan was FORBIDDEN.

Over the centuries usury was redefined as lending money with an excessive or "opressive" interest rate, compelling men to submit to ruinous conditions, leaving them robbed and destitute under the pretext of offering them "charity".

Sound familiar? How about an interest rate of 547.5% p.a.? Check out www.savemybacon.co.nz

There's plenty of other options:

www.needcashtoday.co.nz ("moolah")
547.5% Short Term
182.5% Mid Term
51.1% Long Term

www.paydayadvanceterm.co.nz
up to 693.5% p.a.

www.cashwise.co.nz
only 195% p.a. plus fees


Yes, economic slavery is also deeply entrenched here in NZ... Crying or Very sad

_________________
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Post 24 Jan 2017, 01:50
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Those sites are preying on people that have no self-control. And those people with no self-control will always find ways to get themselves into difficulty. There is just no helping some people.
Post 24 Jan 2017, 01:56
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
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neville
revolution wrote:
And those people with no self-control will always find ways to get themselves into difficulty. There is just no helping some people.
Wrong, of course we can help them... All they need is a fast new "debt consolidation" loan! Just a click away...

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FAMOS - the first memory operating system
Post 24 Jan 2017, 02:11
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
neville wrote:
Usury was originally defined as lending money with ANY non-zero positive interest rate i.e. you could lend a man some money, but charging interest on the loan was FORBIDDEN.
I am not sure about the situations in other countries. Here in HK, lending money with true interest rates exceeding 60% p.a. is illegal. Transactions with true interest rates between 48% and 60% are presumed to be extortionate and may be considered "invalid" by the court.

Wink
Post 24 Jan 2017, 02:55
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
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neville
YONG, Yes it definitely varies. I agree 48% p.a is definitely extortionate ("usurous") so what is 600%+ ?

Here in NZ afaik the loan sharks (and banks a.k.a."financial institutions") have to disclose the true interest rate and the FINANCE RATE (including all fees) that the borrower will pay, but that's about it. No limits. Quite uncivilised.

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Post 24 Jan 2017, 04:39
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ford



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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ford
@sleepsleep, we disagree quite a bit on some fundamental things. this isn't limited to me disagreeing with you. I disagree with most people apparently, and even on these boards I seem to disagree with a lot of people.

Here's the thing: I do not believe that you can morally bring the use of force against peaceful people. Laws are words written on pieces of paper by politicians (people commonly known to be liars and cheats) that are backed up with force by people in funny blue uniforms (police). As such, any law that punishes people who've not violated someone's rights in some way is wrong. Because of my belief about not bringing force against the peaceful, you also cannot have a right that necessitates action from someone else (as you would have a right to someone's actions which would be slavery, and require the use of force against the peaceful).

With that said, the default nature of man is one of complete poverty. No shelter, no food, no clothing, and certainly no manufactured goods. As such, everything you have is the result of someone's labor. If that something is provided by government, it is the result of theft (governments steal money from people through taxation and then provide that stolen money to others who produce things). If that something is something that you purchased then you traded value for value, because you wanted/needed the something more than your money and the other person wanted your money more than that something.

Now, you are saying that people are adversely affected by one person having tons of money. I do not see how that is the case, but okay. You are now saying that that person should then what? If that person were, say, Warren Buffett, should he not have created an investment firm that financed tons of other companies generating wealth for himself and others while simultaneously providing all the products that people seem to truly want? If that person were, say, one of the Walton's should all Walmarts disappear? If you claim to love the poor and disenfranchised then you must certainly love Walmart. Besides creating tons of jobs, Walmart stores offer millions a life that they otherwise could not afford.

As for the comments after yours about predatory lending, if the interest rate is known before the loan is made, then I do not see what the problem would be. Is the borrower stupid? Probably. Is there a moral issue here? Maybe. Should it be outlawed? No. If you think it should be outlawed, you are saying that should someone make a loan outside of a certain band of allowable interest a gun should be held to that person's head and he/she should be kidnapped and thrown in a cage or killed for making the loan. Beyond that, you are also potentially keeping people with bad credit scores from access to credit. For example, if someone has a credit score in the USA of 400 - 500, I could easily understand him/her only being able to get a loan at an interest rate above 50%, as he/she would pose a ridiculously high credit risk. Yet, if the loan is going to pay for a life-style saving surgery it may prove to be a good investment on behalf of the borrower (for example: an enrodding instead of just setting a broken bone).

As for the printing of money that you mentioned, the current monetary systems/policies that are in place in most nations are criminal. Unfortunately, it is the government that commits this particular set of criminal acts. Governments are, by design, exempt from most laws they create and enforce.
Post 24 Jan 2017, 05:31
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ring0



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Australia
ring0
@ford, I am not often to post - particularly on this section of the board but today is my birthday so I will make an exception. Just wanted to say I agree with your post and support your argument. Except perhaps for the last paragraph. The first sentence is true enough but realize that in a democracy the government is an agent of the people - so "the government that commits this particular set of criminal acts" does so because of the greed and avarice of the majority of the population that expects and demands a standard of living - through welfare payments - that they have not earned and are not otherwise entitled to. Certainly this is the case in Australia but perhaps less so in Malaysia although the bumiputra discount is devisive and wrong in my view.
Post 24 Jan 2017, 06:43
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
ring0 wrote:
... but today is my birthday so I will make an exception.
Here is a birthday blessing for a long-time forum member:

An Australian Birthday Blessing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvOeH4cgYFk

Wink
Post 24 Jan 2017, 07:24
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