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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Religion is a belief system, clothes are real objects. Of course people treat them differently. People have trouble with the idea that their belief are wrong so they seek only things that agree with their beliefs and dismiss/ignore things that show their beliefs to be wrong. This is why the "scientific method", if followed properly (unfortunately not always a given), exists -- to divorce oneself from any beliefs and cut through to the real facts.
Post 14 Nov 2016, 23:50
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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YONG
revolution wrote:
Religion is a belief system, clothes are real objects.
Are you sure about that? Not long ago a wise forum member said in this thread that nothing was real. Guess who?

Wink
Post 15 Nov 2016, 02:55
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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YONG
sleepsleep wrote:
the moon doesn't seems extra big compare to normal
Here in HK, the weather was really good last night. The moon was very bright and did look a bit bigger.

Wink
Post 15 Nov 2016, 03:00
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17467
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
revolution wrote:
Religion is a belief system, clothes are real objects.
Are you sure about that? Not long ago a wise forum member said in this thread that nothing was real. Guess who?
Real enough for the purposes of the discussion. Absolute proof of reality is not possible (as I stated earlier), but most rational people happily accept the realness of physical objects, that is realness within the bounds of our perception capabilities. It helps us navigate our lives easier to not consider everything as purely abstract 100% of the time. The practicalities of our existence dominate us whether we like it or not. If you are still interested to discuss it, rather than rage quit as previously, then feel free.
Post 15 Nov 2016, 03:17
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ford



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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ford
YONG wrote:
revolution wrote:
Religion is a belief system, clothes are real objects.
Are you sure about that? Not long ago a wise forum member said in this thread that nothing was real. Guess who?

Wink


You can claim that the universe is a simulation or hallucination or whatever. Doesn't matter. It's all you have to work with. Arguing about it will get you absolutely nowhere. The shirt will exist whether or not you believe it exists. Religion exists only so long as people believe it does. As soon as people quit believing, it will cease to be as it exists only in the human mind. There are many things that are exclusively mind dependent, and oddly they happen to be the things that people fight over the most.

_________________
Everything is absurd.
Post 15 Nov 2016, 04:07
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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YONG
revolution wrote:
YONG wrote:
revolution wrote:
Religion is a belief system, clothes are real objects.
Are you sure about that? Not long ago a wise forum member said in this thread that nothing was real. Guess who?
Real enough for the purposes of the discussion. ... If you are still interested to discuss it, rather than rage quit as previously, then feel free.
When you needed a "nothing is real" argument to make your case, you said nothing was real. When you needed a "something is real" argument to support your point, you said it was real enough. See, you always twist your interpretation to suit your taste. What kind of "discussion" can we ever have?

You live on a fictional desert planet. I don't.

Wink
Post 15 Nov 2016, 07:50
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
There is a difference between the practical and the theoretical. In theory nothing can be proven to be real. In practice, for everyday living, our perception of reality has to be considered. These two things do not contradict each other. You seem to have trouble with this separation of discussion points.

Just like within the realm of religion it is perfectly okay to discuss the various merits of one belief versus the other, and at the same time to separately discuss whether or not god is simply a pure mind trick played by us on ourselves or whether there is indeed an existent god.
Post 15 Nov 2016, 08:09
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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YONG
revolution wrote:
There is a difference between the practical and the theoretical. In theory nothing can be proven to be real. In practice, for everyday living, our perception of reality has to be considered. These two things do not contradict each other. You seem to have trouble with this separation of discussion points.
Nope. I do not have any trouble with that separation. You do.

You keep thinking that you can apply logic in the unreal dimension and it will just work. How do you know?

BTW, who decides whether "something is real enough for the purpose of discussions"? You? Parents? The government? The Pope? ISIS?

At the end of the day, you just twist the interpretation to suit your taste.

Wink
Post 15 Nov 2016, 09:30
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
YONG wrote:
You keep thinking that you can apply logic in the unreal dimension and it will just work. How do you know?
I don't recall ever mentioning something call an "unreal dimension". So applying logic to it doesn't seen to work. But if you are referring to applying logic to unreal things then that would be a mistake. Note that saying nothing can be proven real does not imply that nothing is real, or that there is an unreal dimension (whatever that is).
YONG wrote:
BTW, who decides whether "something is real enough for the purpose of discussions"? You? Parents? The government? The Pope? ISIS?
Me. They are my discussion points, no one else is telling me how to discuss things.
YONG wrote:
At the end of the day, you just twist the interpretation to suit your taste.
Your interpretation is that. And sometimes I'm sure I do. Maybe for comedic effect, or just for my own personal fun. But for this discussion about reality, it all depends upon the point of view. Occasionally I feel like discussing from purely theoretical basis, and I state that nothing can be proved real, theoretically, but that in no way means nothing is real, just only as it says, nothing can be proved real. I can also say, without contradiction, that I perceive things as real. They are my perceptions after all. But that doesn't prove they are real. My perceptions can be fooled, and probably are; but I also cannot prove that. And in order to lead my perceived life, I find it more convenient to treat many things and real. I find it easier that way.

Do you actually have an argument against that? I haven't seen you try to prove anything real (in a theoretical basis) yet. I would be pleased to learn your point of view about reality.
Post 15 Nov 2016, 10:01
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
I don't recall ever mentioning something call an "unreal dimension". So applying logic to it doesn't seen to work. But if you are referring to applying logic to unreal things then that would be a mistake. Note that saying nothing can be proven real does not imply that nothing is real, or that there is an unreal dimension (whatever that is).
The dimension, world, collection, or whatever you call it, of unreal things is the unreal dimension.

Good! You do admit that applying logic to such a dimension would be a mistake. Thank you very much!

Now, according to your argument that perception of any event/anything is not the event/thing itself, nothing can be proven real.

So, how do you know that logic actually applies to any event or anything, given that it may or may not be real?

If logic may or may not apply, all your logical arguments will just crumple.

The above has been my argument since DAY ONE.

You just keep paraphrasing your "answers" and then keep adding distractions like theoretical versus practical considerations.

This is wasting my time! Mad

Wink
Post 15 Nov 2016, 13:29
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17467
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
You are the person that introduced the "unreal dimension", not me. I never applied logic to it because it wasn't a thing until just a few posts ago. But to apply logic to things in general that are unreal is a mistake. God it unreal (to me) so trying to apply logic to it is pointless since anyone can just make up whatever they want. But putting my hand in a burning flame of fire is real (to me) so logically I try to remove my hand to escape the pain. Once again this doesn't contradict the point that I can't prove anything it real. I don't even try to. But to me actions and reactions are real within my perceptions. But I can't prove that to you or anyone else.

So perhaps I should repeat the question since you seem reluctant to answer it: Do you actually have an argument against that? IOW can you prove anything is real, or not real?

Perhaps you can supply us with your logic about your "unreal dimension" construction? You say the "The dimension, world, collection, or whatever you call it, of unreal things is the unreal dimension." (your words). But you don't state which side of the debate you are arguing for. Do you think it is provable that things are real, or not real? If so, please prove that, either way, real or not. But here is perhaps a logical paradox: If you prove things as we know them are real, then how can there be any unreal things? OTOH if you prove that things are not real then the entirety of everything we know is not real therefore our "reality" is in fact the "unreal dimension" as you call it. Maybe I've misunderstood your definition of the unreal dimension? Does the unreal dimension contain our reality? Does the unreal dimension exclude our reality? Some mixture of that?
Post 15 Nov 2016, 13:49
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
16th November 2016

- it seems that human are too easily cling on to abstract ideas, and couldn't let go and switch to another abstract ideas

- i think adult could easily let go any kind of physical objects, but boys, or kids will cry if you take away their toys

- we could say relationship between human is something in between abstract and physical, and i think adult could easily let go any kind of relationship too

- so why abstract ideas so persists inside human mind? yah, real is one of those abstract idea which actually not so far away from a belief system

- maybe believing in abstract idea is like building pillars inside your own consciousness

- and through this pillar, branch out all other beliefs ideas

- not everybody is capable to remove his pillar and build another one, because they spent probably their whole life dedicated to please this pillar

- and you can't allow others to attack your pillar, because somehow, if it is truth, logic, explainable, fit into common sense, your pillar might crumble during the moment you and your consciousness doing the discussion

- you could try very hard to keep on supporting the crumbling pillar, but deep inside consciousness, you actually aware, something is wrong, doesn't make sense, here and there

- free will allow one to ignore those feelings, laziness, ego, stubbornness etc, i am always right, i am the best, i never wrong, i am genious,..

- because all these attitudes are formed when one is small, kid, and until a meteor strikes him/her during adult, s/he will hardly changes those formed attitudes

- i learn to respect food and start appreciate them, really wish someone could teach me about these earlier when i was small or teenager

- if you see how people handle those sacrificed food, animals etc, something is definitely wrong and unethical there,

- they all sacrificed for us, but look, how people throw and passing your food as if they are rubbishes

- how people hardly finish their food,

- all this is terribly wrong

-

- if you check on our human body cells, bacteria, viruses, is like a war scene

- probably this human thing is violence by nature, depicting from how our inner body cells work

- i might say peace, stay calm, non violent, sit and talk, but my body cells are fighting and eating each others,

- so if you can't control events that happening inside your own body right now, there is zero chance to guide events that happening on earth

- human is violent, brutal, aggressive, abusive

- i appreciate my body suit, but the nature of this body suit is violent
Post 15 Nov 2016, 21:11
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
revolution wrote:
So perhaps I should repeat the question since you seem reluctant to answer it: Do you actually have an argument against that? IOW can you prove anything is real, or not real?

Perhaps you can supply us with your logic about your "unreal dimension" construction? You say the "The dimension, world, collection, or whatever you call it, of unreal things is the unreal dimension." (your words). But you don't state which side of the debate you are arguing for. Do you think it is provable that things are real, or not real? If so, please prove that, either way, real or not. But here is perhaps a logical paradox: If you prove things as we know them are real, then how can there be any unreal things? OTOH if you prove that things are not real then the entirety of everything we know is not real therefore our "reality" is in fact the "unreal dimension" as you call it. Maybe I've misunderstood your definition of the unreal dimension? Does the unreal dimension contain our reality? Does the unreal dimension exclude our reality? Some mixture of that?
So many questions. So demanding ... Confused

Since the very day living organisms took shape, it has been up to mother nature -- and mother nature alone -- to decide whether or not their perceptions are good enough to reflect reality.

If their perceptions deviate too much from reality, the living organisms will not be able to effectively cope with the changing world. Their chances of survival will diminish. Eventually, they will become extinct.

Natural selection is the key. After hundreds of millions of years, the ruling species on this lonely planet have developed senses that are good enough to reflect reality, according to the ruling by mother nature. (I am sorry to break this to you. But it is NOT up to you to decide whether something is "real enough" for the purpose of discussions. You just don't have that privilege. Neither do I. Nor do any living organisms for that matter. Mother nature made that decision a long long time ago.)

Humans do know that their senses are not foolproof. That's why they develop physical devices that can better reflect reality. Besides, they devise different methods to reflect reality, and by cross-checking the results, they know how good the methods are.

That is the reality facing us. We know that logic and physical laws apply here after making countless observations and conducting numberless experiments.

Maybe there are other dimensions out there. Maybe not. We do not know. As long as such dimensions do not influence or interact with our reality, we will never find out. As such, we cannot care less about them.

You can keep saying philosophical mumbo jumbos like "nothing can be proven real", or whatever paraphrasing you would use. But you are just wasting your time (and my time as well). And you would put yourself in the predicament that none of your logical arguments can stand, as shown by my argument.

For your own good, stay away from fictional worlds like "Arrakis". Please return to reality -- I welcome you back with open arms.

Wink
Post 16 Nov 2016, 04:27
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
revolution wrote:

But putting my hand in a burning flame of fire is real (to me) so logically I try to remove my hand to escape the pain. Once again this doesn't contradict the point that I can't prove anything it real.


hand sanitizer + fire + hands, very cool blue light

i like pool chlorine with brake fluid, survival stuff Laughing
Post 16 Nov 2016, 12:30
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
If you need charcoal for BBQ or something like that, try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poDBrGIyTEk


If you want to take photos of volcanic eruptions but don't want to risk your life, try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12Z_VeDtnuM


Wink
Post 16 Nov 2016, 13:49
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
i saw this in, how to win friends and influence people

Quote:

If you can be sure of being right only 55 percent of the time, you can go down to Wall Street and make a million dollars a day. If you can't be sure of being right even 55 percent of the time, why should you tell other people they are wrong?

You can tell people they are wrong by a look or an intonation or a gesture just as eloquently as you can in words - and if you tell them they are wrong, do you make them want to agree with you? Never! For you have struck a direct blow at their intelligence, judgement, pride and self-respect. That will make them want to strike back. But it will never make them want to change their minds. You may then hurl at them all the logic of a Plato or an Immanuel Kant, but you will not alter their opinions, for you have hurt their feelings.

Never begin by announcing "I am going to prove so-and-so to you." That's bad. That's tantamount to saying: "I'm smarter than you are, I'm going to tell you a thing or two and make you change your mind."


i think this is one good book, somehow i flipped to page 100 (pdf) and saw above texts, feel like want to share it here to improve everybody and myself.
Post 16 Nov 2016, 14:56
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YONG



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YONG
Quote:
Never begin by announcing "I am going to prove so-and-so to you." That's bad. That's tantamount to saying: "I'm smarter than you are, I'm going to tell you a thing or two and make you change your mind."
The writer must have never read any scientific research paper or the brilliant proof of any mind-boggling mathematical problem.

Wink
Post 17 Nov 2016, 03:12
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
YONG
UK teenager wins battle to have body cryogenically frozen

Refer to:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/18/health/uk-teenager-cryonics-body-preservation/index.html

One of the forum members always says in this thread that he would like to live forever. I think he should seriously consider cryopreservation.

Wink
Post 19 Nov 2016, 04:35
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
hi YONG,
saw this news too, thank you,

life is great, the moment of now, breathing, eating, sleeping, sight-seeing, all in peace, is not about positive of negative, but a kind of appreciation that, we are all here now, thanks to whatever causes that cause to current now, thank you
Post 19 Nov 2016, 23:24
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
23th November 2016

we don't really care about what is actually happening, we only care about what we want, what are important to us, what we want to keep, we don't really bother anything else which not in our radar

yes, talk is cheap, talk is easy, talk is sitting on chair, talk is getting people into forums, use the mic, spread whatever to make you feel accomplished, talk is being saint, talk is tell others how they should behave, talk is i don't have to listen to you, i just need a mic, talk whatever make me feel accomplished, talk is putting more questions to you,

talk not going to work

talk not going to come into any fruitful work

now you can't talk, and you need others to understand ideas without communication? you want to share them another views without using words, without using audio, without using anything

now i could see if we are here in this simulation to solve this exact issues that cause this simulation to exists, which is actually the same exact issue that cause simulation that simulated us to exists, which is actually also the same issue that cause that level of simulation to exists which also the same issue that cause .....

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 = 45
Post 23 Nov 2016, 14:18
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