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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
Hello, do u know Lojban? I may have an alternative, if i find out that my alternative is better.
Post 13 Apr 2012, 08:25
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6035
Location: Poland
MHajduk
I doubt that any artificial language (doesn't matter how much logical and clear grammar it has) may supersede natural languages. Wink It has been over a century since Esperanto was publicly announced and still it has a limited number of users. Smile
Post 13 Apr 2012, 08:39
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
esperanto is not a logical laguage. It was planned over languages which could be easily leanred plus some borrowment from more in use languages. but it can supersed natural languages, as it can be much better. (though i dont know how lojban is, but what i plan is getting even more superior).

However, look at it like that: in Hungary the main forreign languages learned by people was Russian, before 198something. Now it is English, and some German too at places. Its a matter of current interest in those who control the flock.
Post 13 Apr 2012, 11:04
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6035
Location: Poland
MHajduk
matefkr wrote:
esperanto is not a logical laguage. It was planned over languages which could be easily leanred plus some borrowment from more in use languages. but it can supersed natural languages, as it can be much better. (though i dont know how lojban is, but what i plan is getting even more superior).
Yeah, Esperanto isn't a logical language but is it so much important difference in this case? I think that if the language is too "scholastic" and sophisticated then people may refuse it. Wink Look at the family of the Germanic languages; with time some of them as English, Dutch and Afrikaans have radically simplified their grammar. Smile
matefkr wrote:
However, look at it like that: in Hungary the main forreign languages learned by people was Russian, before 198something. Now it is English, and some German too at places. Its a matter of current interest in those who control the flock.
The same we might observe here, in Poland. Wink
Post 13 Apr 2012, 12:51
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Madis731



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 2140
Location: Estonia
Madis731
Also true in Estonia as well as Latvia and Lithuania. You may take a ruler and put it vertically on Russian border. With every (I'm making a gross generalization here) country residing immediate left of the ruler you can observe that.

On topic: I don't get it. Why was Esperanto needed when we already have Spanish. And what's with the weird non-ASCII characters? This is very computer unfriendly Smile. I bet its hard to write it too, forgetting to "dot" all those. What about character recognition? I don't mean computer recognition, but handwritten text read by a human being.
Then there's Lojban ("so'i cmalu fagri puca'o jelca ne'i le zdani"). I haven't learned enough languages to know what it resembles most (Czech?), but I think that "'" isn't a character. Why wouldn't they just use "h"?

Would anyone care to explain, why are these artificial languages better? I don't think they solve any (real?) issues. Its like programming in esoteric programming languages. Its interesting, but not worthy of (money, time, you name it).
Post 13 Apr 2012, 13:45
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typedef



Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 2913
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typedef
Post 13 Apr 2012, 20:08
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6035
Location: Poland
MHajduk
Madis731 wrote:
Then there's Lojban ("so'i cmalu fagri puca'o jelca ne'i le zdani"). I haven't learned enough languages to know what it resembles most (Czech?), but I think that "'" isn't a character. Why wouldn't they just use "h"?
Yeah, this sentence sounds like a something between Romanian or Albanian and some Slavic languages. Razz

The apostrophe in some languages denotes so-called glottal stop (a voiceless gap between other phonemes) - I don't understand why in Lojban they denote it with dot.
Madis731 wrote:
Would anyone care to explain, why are these artificial languages better? I don't think they solve any (real?) issues. Its like programming in esoteric programming languages. Its interesting, but not worthy of (money, time, you name it).
Well said, I would be happier to see all those efforts redirected on the deciphering of the ancient languages which, like Etruscan, remain obscure till this day. They could eventually try to decode the Voynich manuscript as well. Wink


Last edited by MHajduk on 13 Apr 2012, 22:12; edited 1 time in total
Post 13 Apr 2012, 20:25
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
well, i dont know Lojban, im trying to generate another language which does incorporate easy character recognition, i will have to talk to a lojban expert about some features if they are present in Lojban.

Issues to solve (Lojban): being easi, easiliy expandable wordlist, unambigious so easier to write computer algorithm which can do data mining in texts (think about watson and then think that u have something much much punctuall and simpler, because of the data structure of the unambigious language).

what i want to solve is obviously the above, then recognition through microphone or camera, and recognition through touch (human as well) and some cognitive efficientcis and physical efficiencies. (mostly so that the attention is allocated to the correct datasets in memory or in current attention as fast as possible. also, thights which might need to be said faster should be (like danger related things).
also unambiguity should be present on both recognition tipes.
Post 13 Apr 2012, 21:33
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
For the logical design of Esperanto (from the official source), see here: Fundamento de Esperanto

Basically, the grammar is what is simplified (only 16 rules), and complex words are built up with common roots, so the "basic" vocabulary for normal conversation can be approx. 900 words. So it's easier to learn than English, for instance, even if less popular. The alphabet is 28 characters (not counting the same in caps), six of which are accented (5 = circumflex, 1 = breve). It's covered by Latin-3 (ISO 8859-3) and Unicode. If you can't use those glyphs (or don't want to), the "official" solution is to replace 'g^' with "gh" and 'u(' with 'u' (although the Internet popularized an alternative "x metodo" with gx, ux, etc, which is easier to sort, change, 'x' isn't used elsewhere, etc). As for popularity, it varies, but there are/were at least a million or more users at different times since its creation in 1887. There are many weekly and monthly publications, thousands of books, and always have been yearly conferences (local and universal) held in diverse places.

I'm not really familiar with Lojban, but it seems a schism from Loglan and isn't very popular (even by E-o standards). They tried (IIRC) to be more "universal" by borrowing from six diverse languages for the basic vocabulary, but IMO it only penalizes everyone equally, which seems unintentionally masochistic. Everybody suffers, what an advantage! Wink

P.S. Dr. L.L. Zamenhof was an eye doctor (oculist) from (Bielystok ?) Poland. He was Lithuanian ethnicity, Jewish by birth (and spoke Hebrew, even translated the whole Old Testament to E-o), learned several languages at school (Greek, Latin, German, French, ??), and he went to school in Russia (and his native tongue was actually Russian). I don't even recall how many languages he learned, but he was convinced that people would get along better if they could understand each other more easily, esp. where he was from (very fractured communities). So, as you can see, he had a lot of influences. It did not take over the world, but it was never meant to replace anything. E-o is officially a "second language" meant to be learned in addition to whatever your native tongue is. The fact that most people don't use it doesn't mean it isn't useful.
Post 13 Apr 2012, 23:58
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6035
Location: Poland
MHajduk
Hehe, I expected that ruĝulo [ruʤulo] must feel obliged to say something about Esperanto. Wink
rugxulo wrote:
P.S. Dr. L.L. Zamenhof was an eye doctor (oculist) from (Bielystok ?) Poland.
The correct name of the Polish city is "Białystok" what (as traditional etymology explains it) comes from the join of two words: the adjective "biały" (in English = "white") and the noun "stok" (= "hillside"). Smile
Post 14 Apr 2012, 09:39
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
I talkted to Lojban speakers on theri IRC channel, and it seems that Lojban is not as good as my planned language (the name gonna be derieved from the expression: universal machine and humancognitionoptimised language.
It is concluded too, that i cant offer a Lojban modification, quite much of the words would potentially have to be replaced with new ones.
Post 14 Apr 2012, 18:03
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malpolud



Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 344
Location: Broken hippocampus
malpolud
Why would anybody waste time learning a language almost nobody knows? Wink
Post 14 Apr 2012, 20:19
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
Is that Irony in your words or u realy dont see a reason?
Post 15 Apr 2012, 02:38
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Madis731



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 2140
Location: Estonia
Madis731
rugxulo wrote:
the "official" solution is to replace 'g^' with "gh" and 'u(' with 'u' (although the Internet popularized an alternative "x metodo" with gx, ux, etc, which is easier to sort, change, 'x' isn't used elsewhere, etc).

That was exactly my point. I would hope that many scientists (or educated people) have spent years on this language, but then they go and make mistakes that the general population (the Internet) will quickly solve. Which also meant killing two birds with that "stone" giving the bonus of sorting.

Have they really though it through? I mean every aspect: speaking, writing, learning (computer or human), recognizing (hearing or OCR), translating (from, to, computer or human), etc)?

Its fun to watch that generally movies let us believe that every "alien" language must use hyphens and apostrophies (Kal-El Nok'Tur (I'm just making them up Smile)). I don't believe that aliens with higher IQ would "bark" random syllables like this.

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Post 15 Apr 2012, 10:07
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malpolud



Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 344
Location: Broken hippocampus
malpolud
matefkr wrote:
Is that Irony in your words or u realy dont see a reason?


Well, I really don't see any reason.
Post 15 Apr 2012, 17:31
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matefkr



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 1291
Location: Ukraine, Beregovo
matefkr
[quote="malpolud"][quote="matefkr"]Is that Irony in your words or u realy dont see a reason?[/quote]

Well, I really don't see any reason.[/quote]

Ok then if u dont see a reason for me to create the (maybe described language), explain me why the following are not good reasons.

Unambigious language will make communication algorithm with computers easier, many kind of usefull algorithms can build on it making it even faster. Enforcement of reference giving on relative properties will make search for reference much faster.
Possibility for hierarchical search makes it faster.
Possibility to be read by touch and signed by hands makes it universal, everyone can understand the same thing efficient enough, be it deaf, blind or healthy person. it can be read by touch, so it spares the eyes. or signed easily so its silent.

Unambigious by listening to it, so its easi to recognise with algorithm. Diverse characters easy to recognise ones make it a very easily visually recognisable language too.

Optimised word lenght makes it more efficient during emergency communication.
Cognitive optimisation reduces the chance of missunderstanding plus makes u able to concentrate on more nodes as well in the same time (probably 1.13-1.2 increase).
Post 15 Apr 2012, 19:44
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Madis731



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 2140
Location: Estonia
Madis731
<sarcasm>Isn't English optimized enough? "O, I C U R Qing 2 P B 4 me Smile"</sarcasm> grammar mistakes intentional to pack things tightly Wink
Post 15 Apr 2012, 19:53
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
malpolud wrote:
Why would anybody waste time learning a language almost nobody knows? Wink


Maybe that's the point? Or maybe just for fun? Or maybe to read a translated text? (E-o has thousands translated from other languages that aren't necessarily available in your native tongue, even in the ubiquitous behemoth English.)
Post 16 Apr 2012, 05:29
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