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Index > Heap > magnets: can it move? <- is it stupid?

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idle



Joined: 06 Jan 2011
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idle
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Post 10 Sep 2011, 09:23
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
Assuming that no other forces are applied, the inner magnets will rotate of 180 degrees and after a few swings with decreasing amplitude will stop. Wink
Post 10 Sep 2011, 09:29
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
If you can get everything perfectly aligned and eliminate all air currents and external fields then nothing will move. But as soon as you have some slight imbalance or imperfection then things will happen as MHajduk states.


Last edited by revolution on 10 Sep 2011, 10:40; edited 1 time in total
Post 10 Sep 2011, 09:53
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
revolution wrote:
If you can get everything perfectly aligned and eliminate all air currents and external fields then nothing will move.
Yeah, the ideal state of balance is practically impossible to achieve here. Even pressure of the light from the sunbeam could move magnets a little and this will be enough to perturb this state of unstable equlibrium. Wink

All systems of particles tend to get from the unstable to it's stable equilibrium. Wink
Post 10 Sep 2011, 10:10
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
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edfed
if you want it to rotate indefinitelly, you should be able to change the orientation of magnets in order to inverse their forces.

then, when the rotor will do a 180° turn, the stator will block it due to the opposite sign.
if you make a mecanism that force magnets t change sign, then, you will have perpetual motion engine.

the goal is to always have a magnetic unbalance. what makes move the magnets is the magnetic unbalance.

some datas are negligible in the case of motor construction.
even the torque you take from the motor is negligible if you want to make it work.

a good magnetic perpetual motor will be exactlly like an electric motor plugged on a constant current generator.

it will start slowly, and give a constant torque.

solution to perpetual motion engine is in the sky.
Post 10 Sep 2011, 10:34
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DOS386



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
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DOS386
> solution to perpetual motion engine is in the sky

Right:

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Post 10 Sep 2011, 11:21
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Enko



Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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Enko
Its not perpetual, the sun will eventually dye at some point. Some thousand of years or so.
Post 10 Sep 2011, 12:41
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idle



Joined: 06 Jan 2011
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idle
revolution & MHajduk wrote:
as soon as you have some slight imbalance or imperfection then things will happen

pushing it should suffice
moving unmovable magnets aside stops the machine
to launch it again, the unmovable magnets moved a bit towards, and such a move swirls main axis - balance removed

edfed wrote:
if you want it to rotate indefinitely, you should be able to change the orientation of magnets in order to inverse their forces.

then, when the rotor will do a 180° turn, the stator will block it due to the opposite sign.
if you make a mechanism that forces magnets to change sign, then, you will have perpetual motion engine.

you are right, possible mechanism is:
-both movable magnets merged with a lite-weight chain like on a bike
-in the place where main axis stands, fixed gear as if rounds it:
-so the chain merges two movable magnets and unmovable gear what finally causes polarity change
Post 10 Sep 2011, 16:14
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Stephen



Joined: 13 Aug 2011
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Stephen
idle wrote:
you are right, possible mechanism is:
-both movable magnets merged with a lite-weight chain like on a bike
-in the place where main axis stands, fixed gear as if rounds it:
-so the chain merges two movable magnets and unmovable gear what finally causes polarity change


Nope, doesn't work. It just rotates to 90 deg and stops. I built several perpetual machines when I was in my teens. The only ones I could ever get to work used an outside energy source. That meant they were motors, not a perpetual machine. Figuring out why they don't work is an interesting way to study physics.
Post 10 Sep 2011, 16:54
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asmhack



Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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asmhack
I saw once a perpetual motion engine, in a flash animation.
Post 10 Sep 2011, 18:29
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
i use get really interested with perpetual motion engine,
but since the power to push is same as the power to resists its move, so it becomes balance.
i believe magnet is really good middle man to transfer energy.

human should utilize solar, wind, water, earth gravity energy and create things, stuffs, program that efficient and last long time.
Post 10 Sep 2011, 19:48
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Image

if can create more fixed magnet around it, maybe like 7, with inner 7

then using the earth gravity like picture i modified, maybe can move, i guess so.

or make it as if hanging,
Post 10 Sep 2011, 20:23
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idle



Joined: 06 Jan 2011
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idle
virtual labs, free of charge available too, read attentively: http://www.yenka.com/

edit: also here: http://www.dmoz.org/Science/Physics/Software/
Post 11 Sep 2011, 07:49
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Xorpd!



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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Xorpd!
revolution wrote:
If you can get everything perfectly aligned and eliminate all air currents and external fields then nothing will move. But as soon as you have some slight imbalance or imperfection then things will happen as MHajduk states.

It's kind of central to quantum mechanics that the system doesn't need any push to fall over. Think about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, or reflect on the fact that if you started the system out in its stable configuration it would actually have zero-point energy and be oscillating about its minimum potential energy position (quantum mechanical simple harmonic oscillator).
Post 16 Sep 2011, 06:24
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malpolud



Joined: 18 Jul 2011
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malpolud
Man, don't be bothered by perpetuum mobile. It's a waste of time Wink go and study some advanced maths - you will gain much more.

E: It's thermodynamics that proofs that you can not obtain work without putting energy or work as heat to the system.
Post 16 Sep 2011, 08:00
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
sleepsleep wrote:
i use get really interested with perpetual motion engine,
Because of that and accordingly to your birthday that is just around the corner (two days from now or so Wink) I would like to post here a link to some interesting video. Despite of the fact I'm very skeptical about every information regarding perpetual motion engines, I think you may like this clip. Well, you may eventually treat a machine presented there as a specific sculpture.

Here you go: a Norwegian sculptor and mathematician-amateur claims that he created a machine that has about 90% work efficiency (so it's only almost a perpetual motion engine, but the word "almost" is a key here):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs

Happy Birthday, sleepsleep! Smile
Post 24 Sep 2012, 12:59
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
PM engine demonstrations are just like watching magic. They both fool the viewer and prove nothing. I used to like watching good magic shows when I was younger, they were entertaining. But all these PM engine things are not as entertaining. Where are the dancers and cute animals?
Post 24 Sep 2012, 13:17
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MHajduk



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MHajduk
revolution wrote:
Where are the dancers and cute animals?
The female dancers are there, just created by this improbably talented Norwegian sculptor and some cast in bronze. Watch the video from the beginning, you'll see. Wink
Post 24 Sep 2012, 13:25
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
MHajduk wrote:

Happy Birthday, sleepsleep!

thanks for the wish, MHajduk :
much appreciate, you are the first to wish! (another 4 days to reach my birth day)

i wish you all the best and found what you want in this life.


on a slow connection, will watch the tube after full buffering Smile

i been thinking about something like perpetual energy several days ago, hopefully some one can explain the idea below to me.

time to draw... Wink
Post 24 Sep 2012, 19:03
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
ok,
this is the best drawing i could come up and limited alien english below Cool please forgive me,

i somehow think, this would works! Smile

so, what we got is a cone shape circular wire coil > < that wrapped by circular wire coil.

i just draw 2 units, but i mean, to link them circular ( the cone is able to contract and expand)

so, if we manually pull [S][S] together for 2 units below,
then we release,
they repels,

since [N] is coil spring together with [S], so they will try to join together, but since between them is a coil spring, they can try but harder they try, the coil spring will fail them more harder, then force it backs to original position,

then the chain reaction begins.

and since those magnets moving inside coil, so we will get electricity.


Description: the idea of how it works.
Filesize: 7.39 KB
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myawesome.PNG


Description: the idea of how the coil should looks like.
Filesize: 45.57 KB
Viewed: 4230 Time(s)

awesomecoil.PNG


Post 24 Sep 2012, 21:14
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