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Index > Heap > Do HLLs make coding too easy?

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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17344
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Curious topic I read here with an amusing paragraph ("it" refers to writing threaded code):
Quote:
Boohoo. It *should* be hard. Make it easy enough for a moron to code, and you wind up with tons of software written by morons. Oops, too late. Making software easier to write is doing *nobody* any favors. Not the software companies, who have to support and maintain code bases written by people never had a clue WTF they were doing in the first place, and not the users, who sit around twiddling their thumbs while their umpteen GHz computing systems are churning thru bloatware.
So, should software be hard to write? Hehe, with assembly maybe we are already doing it right by not making it simple.

Another amusing paragraph:
Quote:
I'd wager that any computing task you can conceive of today could be accomplished perfectly well on today's hardware, if you threw out all the templates and scaffolding and other such crap that the majority of modern programmers reflexively reach for at first.
Hmm ... could this poster be correct?
Post 23 Dec 2011, 05:37
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typedef



Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 2913
Location: 0x77760000
typedef
coding itself is already easy but the logic is what gets hard. One could have the whole IA-x32 instruction set engraved on their eyelids and not know how to produce small and portable robust code. HLL on the other hand makes the morons the morons they are because most of the time they(the morons) have no clue what the HLL API does underneath(i.e, how it is assembles the resulting code, alignment, rules / conventions etc.)

However, HLL is just there to help us finish projects quickly but the logic still is within a programmer.

So I think it does make coding easy because all (the morons) they see is int this and char* that without having knowledge over it.
Post 23 Dec 2011, 07:09
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Tomasz Grysztar



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7734
Location: Kraków, Poland
Tomasz Grysztar
This topic made me recall this old text: Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal.


And also The story of Mel (there's a link to it in the above one), with my favorite fragment:
usenet: utastro!nather wrote:
There was a program to do that job, an "optimizing assembler", but Mel refused to use it.

"You never know where it's going to put things", he explained, "so you'd have to use separate constants".

It was a long time before I understood that remark. Since Mel knew the numerical value of every operation code, and assigned his own drum addresses, every instruction he wrote could also be considered a numerical constant. He could pick up an earlier "add" instruction, say, and multiply by it, if it had the right numeric value.
That's some real coding, folks! Wink
Post 23 Dec 2011, 09:28
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typedef



Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Posts: 2913
Location: 0x77760000
typedef
so is that like X * sizeof(register) ?
Post 23 Dec 2011, 16:27
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Enko



Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 678
Location: Mar del Plata
Enko
No, I think this:

Code:
start:
   add eax, ecx
   add eax, byte[start]
    


I remember reading Pascal books, in all of them, it was instructed that if you use GOTO you will burn in barbie hell or somthing like that. Rolling Eyes
Post 23 Dec 2011, 21:06
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AsmGuru62



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1412
Location: Toronto, Canada
AsmGuru62
You can simulate GOTO in some cases:
Code:
while (1)
{
      if (part1 failed) break;
    if (part2 failed) break;
    if (part3 failed) break;
    //
  // as many parts as you wish ...
    //
  break;
}
//
// That's where you'll end up in any case!
// so, there is only one return from a procedure.
//
    
Post 24 Dec 2011, 00:06
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Coty



Joined: 17 May 2010
Posts: 546
Location: ␀
Coty
Quote:
Do HLLs make coding too easy?


Yes, because of it we have to much shoddy code that is ill optimized and barely works. Because of lazy programmers that have no interest in spending time on it, they just want credit, money or a program done asap.
Post 24 Dec 2011, 23:04
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AsmGuru62



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1412
Location: Toronto, Canada
AsmGuru62
I say, blame the managers!

ME: Boss, I need at least three weeks for a proper design.
BOSS: You're kidding, right?.. customers are waiting it to be done by Friday.
ME: .... uhm... will be done, boss, but performance may be not great.
BOSS: Who cares! It must work with no crashes -- that is all!

This was a real conversation, btw...
Sad
Post 25 Dec 2011, 13:53
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