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Index > Projects and Ideas > TROJAN - fasmlib-0.8.0

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iic2



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 123
iic2
Unbelievable! It's clean-up week again.

Thanks f0dder
Post 06 Nov 2010, 22:31
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drobole



Joined: 03 Nov 2010
Posts: 67
Location: Norway
drobole
For goodness sake, don't make C/C++ look like BASIC!
Besides, you have no guarantee that it won't slow down your code. When the compiler sees it, it may wery well go: BEGIN... END?!?! Hmm, this guy probably wants me to generate sloppy code...
Post 09 Nov 2010, 12:03
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
drobole wrote:
For goodness sake, don't make C/C++ look like BASIC!
It's more like Pacal than BASIC, but other than that I agree Smile

drobole wrote:
Besides, you have no guarantee that it won't slow down your code. When the compiler sees it, it may wery well go: BEGIN... END?!?! Hmm, this guy probably wants me to generate sloppy code...
The compiler never sees the BEGIN/END tokens, they're substituted by the preprocessor Wink

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Post 09 Nov 2010, 12:12
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17714
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revolution
drobole wrote:
Hmm, this guy probably wants me to generate sloppy code...
As opposed to the guy not wanting sloppy code but the compiler still generates it anyway.
Post 09 Nov 2010, 12:16
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iic2



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
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iic2
For me, since going back to school it been all about networking since I fell-in-love with FreeBSD (but school only gave me "MORE" Windows). Now i'm taking a course in C++ for two reasons. To understand ASM a LOT better and I like the way C++ people talk code. I read a lot of threads here about C++ that got me wondering some years ago. I notice a lot of you guys earn a living writing C++ code while moonlighting with FASM.

For me, the trick is to understand the textbook tongue twisters and big names for the simplest things. They got 50 complicated way to say VARIABLE, with each sentence consisting of fifteen words or more.

I'm hoping with some ASM knowledge and comparing notes I think I can get the compiler to near match most of my raw assembler if I keep my FASM simple. If not, I'm going to pick up a lot just for trying. If most of those super-skillful C++ people knew ASM I think he and her would top all charts, just like many of you here. They put down ASM coding as hard as we complain about writing C. They claim it's re-usable and portable but C++ for Windows is far difference than writing for UNIX. 32-bit is far difference than today's 64-bit and QUANTUM is nearing too. It's going to change it all back to ASM first, anyway. So I might as well stick to ASM and learn C++ just to c and be ready for what to be next (which seem to be a lot of MATH). One thing for sure, I still got a long way to go to get there.
Post 11 Nov 2010, 05:38
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drobole



Joined: 03 Nov 2010
Posts: 67
Location: Norway
drobole
Taking a few C++ courses is probably a good idea. Its a fantastic piece of engineering art imo. Still, hanging out with C++ for too long might come back and bite you. Its not a very productive language despite all the third party libraries that comes with it. If you stick to it for too long you will start hear professionals talk about idioms, patterns and a four headed beast called polymorphism. All workarounds for a minefield of a language without restraints.
But of course, its a really fun language to play with.

Personally I hope the D language will get more attention in the years to come. I much prefer it to C++. Another interesting system language is Go.
Post 11 Nov 2010, 06:51
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
iic2 wrote:
They claim it's re-usable and portable but C++ for Windows is far difference than writing for UNIX. 32-bit is far difference than today's 64-bit and QUANTUM is nearing too.
The parts dealing with your GUI will either be OS-specific, or use a cross-OS toolkit. There's differences if you use low-level system APIs, but those can be abstracted away. If you're writing a "real" application, hopefully there's a (lot) more to it than some GUI interfacing Smile.

32- vs 64-bit isn't much of a difference in C/C++, but of course it can affect choices wrt. buffer sizes, and you need to keep it in mind when serializing your data, whether for persistence or communication.

drobole wrote:
Personally I hope the D language will get more attention in the years to come. I much prefer it to C++.
I haven't played with D, but it's featurelist seems very nice (except not supporting dynamic class loading... and no reflection?), but I'm a bit wary of using a "small" language for anything serious.
Post 11 Nov 2010, 08:16
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drobole



Joined: 03 Nov 2010
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drobole
Dynamic class loading sounds like a high level concept to me, I'm not sure though as I have never used it that I'm aware of.

D does have reflections http://boscoh.com/programming/some-reflection-on-programming-in-d-and-why-it-kicks-serious-ass-over-c-leaving-it-died-and-tired-on-the-sidewalk (rofl)

Seriously, its a young language even though things have been picking up since Alexandrescu went into it. He even wrote a book "The D Programming language" that is pretty darn good.

I do agree however that it still has issues, the compiler has forked into a version 1 vs 2. Standard libraries has been rendered more or less useless recently due to the fork, the license for the DMD backend still smells, lack of third parties, slow support on unix like platforms, etc.
Its certaintly too early to seriously lean on it.
Post 11 Nov 2010, 08:55
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
My understanding of dynamic class loading: basically, the ability to do plugins. Like, having a MonsterEntity interface/abstract base class, and add new concrete MonsterFoo implementations at runtime (without recompile or reload of the app).

But I guess there's ways around it, like factory methods in DLLs Smile
Post 11 Nov 2010, 10:19
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drobole



Joined: 03 Nov 2010
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drobole
I see.
I guess you would have to go about it like you would in C++
Post 11 Nov 2010, 11:12
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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rugxulo
drobole wrote:

I do agree however that it still has issues, the compiler has forked into a version 1 vs 2. Standard libraries has been rendered more or less useless recently due to the fork, the license for the DMD backend still smells, lack of third parties, slow support on unix like platforms, etc.
Its certaintly too early to seriously lean on it.


First, I don't know D at all, but ...

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/D_Programming

http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html

So it's not that rare, and people do use it.

Too early? Hardly.

As for license woes and incompatibilities and slow adoption, that applies to pretty much every technology that isn't extremely-boring-old-stable-crufty. It's still a dog-eat-dog world, and you still should use the right tool for the job (though deciding that is half the battle indeed).

P.S. And it's not like C++ was ever perfect, but it's what people work on and update, use, prefer, etc. That's the only reason it "wins".
Post 12 Nov 2010, 17:34
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drobole



Joined: 03 Nov 2010
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drobole
rugxulo wrote:
drobole wrote:

I do agree however that it still has issues, the compiler has forked into a version 1 vs 2. Standard libraries has been rendered more or less useless recently due to the fork, the license for the DMD backend still smells, lack of third parties, slow support on unix like platforms, etc.
Its certaintly too early to seriously lean on it.


First, I don't know D at all, but ...

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/D_Programming

http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html

So it's not that rare, and people do use it.

Too early? Hardly.

As for license woes and incompatibilities and slow adoption, that applies to pretty much every technology that isn't extremely-boring-old-stable-crufty. It's still a dog-eat-dog world, and you still should use the right tool for the job (though deciding that is half the battle indeed).

P.S. And it's not like C++ was ever perfect, but it's what people work on and update, use, prefer, etc. That's the only reason it "wins".


Well I kind of agree with you. Hell, I even bought the book from Alexandrescu. (He sent me one of those copies that doesn't have a author name on the front cover so I guess I'm not considered a VIP afterall Confused )

However, there is a few things to say here. They advice us to use the version 2 of the compiler for new projects, but they also say that the syntax and libraries may change without further notice. This will probably change soon but thats the current status.
Another thing to consider is that there is no x86-64 compiler available yet. I'm not the first one to say that they have to get that going before they can call it a mature compiler. (The developers even say this themself on the irc channel)
ps. I'm talking about the DMD version 2 here...

Just a side note, I never said C++ was perfect. Actually, I said C++ is a minefield for anyone not experienced with what goes on under the hood, so to speak.

A part from that I agree with you.
Post 12 Nov 2010, 18:02
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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rugxulo
drobole wrote:

They advice us to use the version 2 of the compiler for new projects, but they also say that the syntax and libraries may change without further notice.


Par for the course, but indeed very frustrating.

Quote:

This will probably change soon but thats the current status.
Another thing to consider is that there is no x86-64 compiler available yet.


I guess you mean for Windows? LDC supports x86-64, apparently, since a separate CCBI binary exists for it.

Quote:

I'm not the first one to say that they have to get that going before they can call it a mature compiler. (The developers even say this themself on the irc channel)
ps. I'm talking about the DMD version 2 here...


Most people truly don't "need" 64-bit support, hence why development lags for many tools. Why upgrade when 32-bit compatibility works well?

Quote:

Just a side note, I never said C++ was perfect. Actually, I said C++ is a minefield for anyone not experienced with what goes on under the hood, so to speak.


It's not that I hate C++ , but it's pretty complicated and the syntax is a little frustrating. But some people can't live without some of its features and eschew all other "less modern" languages.
Post 12 Nov 2010, 19:09
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Tomasz Grysztar



Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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Tomasz Grysztar
rugxulo wrote:
It's not that I hate C++ , but it's pretty complicated and the syntax is a little frustrating. But some people can't live without some of its features and eschew all other "less modern" languages.
Stanisław Lem once wrote something like "the chair than can be used also as a hammer, is neither a comfortable chair and neither a handy hammer". I think C++ suffers from such a syndrome. Wink It is very flexible and in capable hands it can handle almost anything - but this comes at a price.
Post 12 Nov 2010, 19:51
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drobole



Joined: 03 Nov 2010
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drobole
@rugxulo
Well, things are looking good for D... the only problem I have really is if I prefer Go.
In many ways, Go is good at many of the things C++ and D is not.
Its simplicity makes me worry less about what feature to use, and it is designed to utilize multiple CPU cores and concurrent threads with ease. And the support from G$$gle on top of that...

Uhhh, what to choose...
Post 12 Nov 2010, 19:51
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 727
guignol
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
"the chair than can be used also as a hammer, is neither a comfortable chair and neither a handy hammer".
Lemma Smile
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
I think C++ suffers from such a syndrome. Wink
Let's just say: it suffers Wink
Post 14 Nov 2010, 06:23
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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rugxulo
Well, Go support (last I heard) was very weak on Windows, fairly incomplete. So if that platform matters to you (probably), it may not be the best choice.
Post 15 Nov 2010, 18:01
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drobole



Joined: 03 Nov 2010
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drobole
I know. There is a windows version but its not officially supported. It works though
Post 16 Nov 2010, 13:27
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