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Index > Heap > The existance of nonpseudo random numbers.

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3200th



Joined: 23 Nov 2008
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3200th
True random numbers do exist.

In fact, a simple device that can generate such numbers has been constructed very recently.

Refer to this.

Wink
Post 17 Sep 2010, 09:10
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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MHajduk
3200th wrote:
In fact, a simple device that can generate such numbers has been constructed very recently.

Refer to this.

Wink
How do they know that their device produces only quantum noise, and this spectrum isn't polluted by any other source producing strong electromagnetic waves, for example, and could deform measured data? Wink

They calculate a difference between beams going to the two detectors, right. But noise sources can also affect these detectors differently, since there aren't two completely identical sensors (and they are placed in some distance each from other). Smile
Post 17 Sep 2010, 10:50
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ouadji



Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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ouadji

The chance (random events) is a purely human concept and has no scientific reality.
This word is a characteristic of our limited knowledge of the universe and allows us just to justify this ignorance.
Try to create a real random event, it's like trying to create the perpetual motion.
A perfect human fantasy.

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Post 17 Sep 2010, 11:18
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
My view is similar to ouadji's. There is beyond computability and that is close to random. There is an order unknown to us. (Can we not bring religion into this.)

What I'm saying is that all our present knowledge suggests orderly relationships between stuff in the universe. We can delve down into a realm where our ability to measure those relationships becomes fuzzy, but this shouldn't suggest an orderly relationship does not exist. And this is the first problem: our limited perspective. Simple relationships out of our view.

The second problem is complexity. Even within our realm of measurable events dynamics can take place which are beyond our computability. I'm talking requiring more operations than particles in the universe times seconds universe has been in existence type complexity! Study some combinatorial problems to see how commonplace this is.

Many examples of "randomness" suffer from both problems.

To us they will most likely remain as random as random can be. Very Happy
Post 18 Sep 2010, 02:32
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ouadji



Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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ouadji
It's a pity that my english is so poor, because this topic is very interesting. It's a scientific topic, but philosophical too. An event is always the result of a combination of causes. Give a reality to the random events mean that the same set of causes do not always give the same result. (in this case, there would have an unknown parameter, a unknow power) When I speak of causes, I mean in an absolute sense, and that includes everything that makes up the Universe. If we put again the whole universe in its initial state, all events will occur exactly as they have already happened ... including yourself, including the shape of the cloud that you have now above your head,
...including the last "random" number of your program to create random numbers ...


(sorry for my english, i do my best, it's not easy)

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Post 18 Sep 2010, 08:23
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
If you believe that everything is predictable (i.e. the existence of random numbers is only limitation of not enough knowledge of initial conditions) then you should also believe that there is no free will in life. The analogy being that if you knew enough about all of the existence state of a person and their surroundings then their behaviour will be 100% predetermined.
Post 18 Sep 2010, 09:23
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ouadji



Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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ouadji

I did not say that everything is predictable, I said that every event is the result of a cause or set of causes.
Your own free will is the result of atoms, electric currents ... which themselves are the results of ...
Your own free will also depends on the initial conditions of the universe.
Quote:
if you knew enough about all of the existence state of a person and their surroundings then their behaviour will be 100% predetermined.
not "enough", but ALL, including its history ...
knowing that the first quark of the universe is part of his story ...
in this case, yes !

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Post 18 Sep 2010, 09:41
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
ouadji wrote:
Your own free will is the result of atoms, electric currents ... which themselves are the results of ...
Your own free will also depends on the initial conditions of the universe.
But then it isn't free will, it is just a set of predetermined/predicable actions and outcomes. So the net result would be that we have no free will, we just follow a fate that cannot be changed.

Why did I post this? Oh, because I HAD to, I was compelled by my fate.
Post 18 Sep 2010, 09:53
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ouadji



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ouadji

Here begins the philosophy and the dream ...
the dream that we have within us the ability to change what we want.

edit:

the randomness concept justifies the free will concept, both are linked,
What bothers Humans by questioning the reality of chance (random events),
is that it calls into question the reality of free will.

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Post 18 Sep 2010, 10:00
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
In an absolute sense there is no free will, but it doesn't matter in the way we live our lives because of the non-computable nature of it. As the half-life is predicable so to is the fact that we will all die, but cannot predict the exact moment or method. It's a very complex system. So, as far as any of us know we all have a chance at making our dream a reality -- more so in the sense of a collective dream.
Post 19 Sep 2010, 02:54
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Post 19 Sep 2010, 03:21
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Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
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Tyler
"Many worlds interpretation", a theoretical explanation of quantum mechanics, suggests that at every event with multiple possibilities causes forks in the universe, one for each possibility. So maybe you don't have free will, maybe you are destined to do everything.
Post 19 Sep 2010, 03:22
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
even if we are destined, but we dont know about what would happen the very next,, like the pi number.

Quote:

A computer scientist claims to have computed the mathematical constant pi to nearly 2.7 trillion digits, some 123 billion more than the previous record.


nobody know the 7.9 trillion pi digits. it could be calculated,,, but .. nobody know yet... just like our destiny..
the process of calculate it is like we living our life till the last breath...

so, whether we got free will or not, is not that important..
Post 19 Sep 2010, 03:33
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Tyler



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Tyler
A read from memory(pseudo-randomly chosen, or returned by malloc) could give you a good (pseudo?)random number. Would that be considered random? It does depend on what has been using that memory, which would depend on what the user has been running, which according to revolution is random, although I disagree kinda.
Post 26 Sep 2010, 03:26
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Tyler wrote:
A read from memory(pseudo-randomly chosen, or returned by malloc) could give you a good (pseudo?)random number. Would that be considered random? It does depend on what has been using that memory, which would depend on what the user has been running, which according to revolution is random, although I disagree kinda.
I highlighted the problem with your statement. So you would need to choose a pseudo-random number in order to get an address value to read a number from memory that you hope is pseudo random. Not really a sensible plan IMO. Because if you already have a pseudo-random number then you don't need to go using it to read memory, just use it directly since it is already pseudo-random.

Anyhow generating good quality pseudo-random numbers is not the problem here. There are oodles of algorithms that can do it, some better than others of course. The problem is the seeding. Where are you going to start the sequence?
Post 26 Sep 2010, 03:36
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revo1ution



Joined: 04 Mar 2010
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revo1ution
revolution wrote:

Anyhow generating good quality pseudo-random numbers is not the problem here.
Please define "good quality pseudo-random numbers" Confused
Post 26 Sep 2010, 08:39
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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guignol
rev does not define, he states Cool
Post 26 Sep 2010, 08:41
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
revo1ution wrote:
Please define "good quality pseudo-random numbers" Confused
nop, aka revo1ution: There are a number of tests that have been devised to test the quality of pseudo-random number generators. One common test is called "diehard", but there are many more. Anyhow, if you are still unsure, my website has many many links for pseudo-random number test programs.
Post 26 Sep 2010, 08:49
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revo1ution



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revo1ution
revolution wrote:
There are a number of tests that have been devised to test the quality of pseudo-random number generators. One common test is called "diehard", but there are many more. Anyhow, if you are still unsure, my website has many many links for pseudo-random number test programs.
revolution naka revo1ution: you haven't answered the question. Before you can test for something, such as the quality of prng's, you kinda need to define what that something is, do you not? Wink
Post 26 Sep 2010, 08:59
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
revo1ution: I'm not sure I understand what you need defined. The test programs will tell you what is tested for, and thus defines what is considered good quality and what is not.
Post 26 Sep 2010, 09:21
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