flat assembler
Message board for the users of flat assembler.

Index > Heap > Is there a reason for the NT kernel to be proprietary?

Goto page Previous  1, 2
Author
Thread Post new topic Reply to topic
revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17284
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Tyler wrote:
So modified kernels would be unlikely to work with Windows? That would eliminate the risk of incompatibilities from the MS point of view. Over modified kernels would be practically useless as competitors with the stock NT.
Not to that level. A modded kernel can still work the the other Windows stuff but only as long as you keep within the same version and the mods are not so drastic as to completely break it.

But you can't go backwards, only forwards. A newer version of explorer will likely want to use the newer kernel features "to enhance the user experience". And those kernel features won't be available on older OS version.

Even trying to go forwards, while theoretically possible, is unlikely to be successful. Explorer is tightly integrated with the kernel. Sometimes undocumented things get deleted, replaced, or move to another place, and explorer no longer knows how to run on a future OS version.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 02:34
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1216
Location: NC, USA
Tyler
You mention undocumented functions, I didn't think of that when asking why NT is closed. I guess that's another reason, they would want to keep undocumented things undocumented.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 02:43
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17284
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Tyler wrote:
You mention undocumented functions, I didn't think of that when asking why NT is closed. I guess that's another reason, they would want to keep undocumented things undocumented.
Hehe, the MPAA/RIAA would go nuts. No more blu-ray DVD decoders for Windows with an open kernel.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 02:50
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
roboman



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 122
Location: USA
roboman
Tyler wrote:
"Why is NT closed source?"
Because it would become like Linux, some people would get in there clean up things and rewrite sections, then sell or give it away. Others would get in there, maybe change a couple lines, mostly just the ones with the copyright and name then claim it as theirs. Microsoft would loose big bucks and control of their software, what has made them billions of dollars. I thought ReactOS got shut down when it got shown some key sections of the core were directly taken from a pirated release of some windows source? but may be wrong there.

edemko wrote:
i'd like seeing MS DOS sources too

You can get the source to DR-DOS, they were very close and I never tried to run a dos program on DR-Dos that didn't run as well or better there.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 02:56
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1216
Location: NC, USA
Tyler
> You can get the source to DR-DOS, they were very close and I never tried to run a dos program on DR-Dos that didn't run as well or better there.
It's not how good it works or anything like that. It's the history behind it. DR-DOS wasn't the start of a billion $/yr company, DRI went out of business in '91.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 03:03
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
edemko



Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Posts: 549
edemko
Tyler, i meant WinVista saying that word.
notepad.exe, have you mentioned there is no rolling back when you replace text and press "Cancel".
No need to read such sources.
There had been a joke with notepad, when it could solve expression.
The article is in russian, if you are interested for an english version it can be translated just let me know.
Article:
http://www.wasm.ru/article.php?article=addfunc
Output:
http://www.wasm.ru/pub/23/files/AddFunc.rar
Output picture:
Image
Post 18 Jul 2010, 08:21
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
edemko



Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Posts: 549
edemko
eh, when i tried its translation it refused to run

EDIT:
check it:
http://hack5.blogspot.com/2008/04/funny-notepad-tricks-you-have-never.html
Post 18 Jul 2010, 09:32
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1216
Location: NC, USA
Tyler
edemko wrote:
The article is in russian, if you are interested for an english version it can be translated just let me know.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wasm.ru%2Farticle.php%3Farticle%3Daddfunc
Post 18 Jul 2010, 10:09
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
edemko



Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Posts: 549
edemko
Thank you.
They say the article is not full.
I liked the result.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 10:28
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1216
Location: NC, USA
Tyler
This just occurred to me: I have no idea what yall mean by linux incompatibilities. What do you mean? Other than package differences any app for linux, if compiled from source, will run on any linux. Most even w/o being compiled. This is assuming the app is standards compliant and both linuxes are x-bit.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 16:29
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17284
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Well Linux doesn't run on my machines, it is incompatible, some driver issue that I have no time to diagnose. And there is so much choice to select from that it is daunting to even consider looking for other versions/releases/builds/packages/whatever-they-are-called to try.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 17:00
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1216
Location: NC, USA
Tyler
How old are they, and how obscure of hw do they have? What OS do you run on them(version too if applicable/possible)?

If your machines happen to be ARM based, then incompatibility is to be expected Wink. Although there is a version of Linux for some ARM devices(Android OS(smart phones), iPod, some iPad wannabes, ARM based SBCs, etc.) ARM spans a large array of types of computers, some very closed to OS devers.

I know what you mean by device incompatibilities though. Although rare, they're really annoying. 2.6.33.* had an issue somewhere that caused my WLAN card not to work. I had to stand at my counter in the kitchen connected to my router anytime I wanted to use the internet. It SUCKED! I even reinstalled Vista Basic(OEM for my computer) because of it. It was fixed in 2.6.35 though. How long has it been since you tried Linux, it changes rapidly(2.6.34.1 sources tar.bz2 compressed: 64.5MB, 2.6.35 same: 66MB, 1.5MB of compressed source is huge even in C.). Try an Ubuntu live cd(Ubuntu, although "free" by default, makes it really easy to get "non-free" drivers.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 17:30
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17284
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
[offtopic]

Tyler: Thanks for your advice, but I have no patience or time to keep trying more and more versions. I have given up for now.

The last time I went through the process was about 1 year ago. My machines are from 2003 and 2006, but I only tried the newer one. Linux could not get past the boot up screen, just froze. Anyhow, I put it back to XPSP2 from the manufacturers original disk.

Oh, and very funny, but I don't run ARM desktops. I don't think there are presently any ARM based desktop systems made, are there? And curiously enough, I have in the past joined some ARM mailing lists to offer help and discuss with others doing similar things as me, but was quite disappointed because 99.9% of all messages are about the difficulties people have with compiling/installing/running Linux. And not surprising is that most of those problems are due to driver issues!

Anyhow, I have mentioned this before in another thread, for Linux to really go bigger the manufacturers have to get behind it and write good drivers. They know their own hardware, they are in the best position to write.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 17:55
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1216
Location: NC, USA
Tyler
Quote:
manufacturers have to get behind it and write good drivers. They know their own hardware, they are in the best position to write.
Oddly enough we end up back on topic... to an extent. That's the whole reason NT has flourished and Linux has struggled. The lack of desire to share knowledge, and in most cases a desire to keep it secret. Linux allows, but places strict restrictions of proprietary drivers, making it a real dilemma for manufacturers wanting to support Linux, but at the same time wanting to keep secrets. Even VMware(not a device maker, but a big proprietary company) decided it had no other choice than to go GPL for it's Linux kernel driver.

Luckily for me, NVidia writes (closed) drivers even though it knows about the restrictions. There's a "free" alternative, but we both know those suck for very guarded hw Smile.

> Anyhow, I put it back to XPSP2 from the manufacturers original disk.
You mean you didn't try a live cd, omg dude, I would've never attempted the switch without testing it first. You don't even have to install anything to try it. A live cd lets you boot from a CD to "try before you buy" so to speak(That's just a saying, it's free.). No changes to the HDD whatsoever, unless you want to of course. The live cd will even let you install things to update/upgrade, but will only keep them in memory until reboot. It only takes about a 1.25 hr download on 1mbit/s DSL and a CD/DVD+/-R(W).

About ARM, Android would be a good open development platform to play on. It's completely open source. Ubuntu Notebook(i386) is even working on an Android(ARM) compatibility layer.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 18:40
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
edemko



Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Posts: 549
edemko
imagine a virus knowing kernel internals and having 12 cores
of course anti-viruses enter new generation too
Post 18 Jul 2010, 19:36
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1216
Location: NC, USA
Tyler
> imagine a virus knowing kernel internals
Yeah, I know. NT would be just like Linux, there'd be exploits released daily. And NT users would finally have to start using anti virus, wouldn't that be awful.
Post 18 Jul 2010, 20:01
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
baldr



Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 1651
baldr
edemko wrote:
imagine a virus knowing kernel internals…
Security through obscurity?
Post 18 Jul 2010, 23:01
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17284
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Tyler wrote:
> imagine a virus knowing kernel internals
Yeah, I know. NT would be just like Linux, there'd be exploits released daily. And NT users would finally have to start using anti virus, wouldn't that be awful.
Lots of people, including virus writers, already know the internals of NT/Windows. It is not exactly a secret of national importance. You don't need source code to examine and exploit something.
Post 19 Jul 2010, 00:38
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Tyler wrote:
True, and that's how Windows profits from incompatibility. I have explorer.exe from Windows 7 but Vista says it's "not a valid Win32 application". Wine won't open it either. Nor will either open notepad from Win7.
32bit Vista, 64bit Win7?

It wouldn't really be in MS's interests to opensource the NT kernel - one thing is their intellectual property, which they aren't too keen on sharing. Another is that their organization isn't set up to be able to handle patches from the outside; for huge projects (which both NT and Linux are), there's a pretty fair amount of project management overhead. And for NT, it's not just sharing the source code, there's the whole build environment, specialized tools, et cetera.

Anyway, the question isn't "Is there a reason for the NT kernel to be proprietary?" - it's "Why would MS opensource the NT kernel". Remember that MS is a corporation, with the intent & purpose of generating revenue for it's investors. Which advantages would they gain from opening the source code? tangible advantages that would work without restructuring their organization, not just the theoretical advantages of OSS Smile

_________________
Image - carpe noctem
Post 19 Jul 2010, 08:19
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
rugxulo
Incompatible Windows? There already are! Win31, Win98, Win2k, Win7.

MS-DOS sources? Already (partially) leaked, but why would you bother? Just check out FreeDOS (or RxDOS or crappy-licensed OpenDOS w/ EDR patches).

And yes, Tyler, many companies have "opened" their kernels for people to improve, only to close them again whenever they feel like it.

I don't think MS is even capable of open sourcing something even as old / useless as Win31. And that's if they wanted to (which they don't, out of misguided principle).

All this talk of money is a red herring as plenty of people make money off of Linux, directly and indirectly. (It's about "freedom", not zero price.)

"Nobody profits from incompatibility." Bullcrap else we'd all use the same doc, exe, img, obj, FSes, etc.. Many lawsuits have come about from this (either for or against).

In short, there's plenty of good and bad in the world. Focus on whichever you want.
Post 19 Jul 2010, 12:03
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:
Post new topic Reply to topic

Jump to:  
Goto page Previous  1, 2

< Last Thread | Next Thread >
Forum Rules:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Copyright © 1999-2020, Tomasz Grysztar. Also on YouTube, Twitter.

Website powered by rwasa.