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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
Intelectual property is the problem. Some want to call a hammer a house - even a better hammer doesn't insure a better house! I-P U-P we all P. Shit, I'm drunk...
Post 23 Dec 2009, 08:45
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
DustWolf wrote:
This argument is ridiculous. You've said it all: You don't use Linux. Hence you have no idea what you're talking about.
So if I say that the LHC exists, I have no idea what I'm talking about -- I haven't been there right?

What I said wasn't for the average user btw... it was when I read all sorts of a bit more advanced than joe usage and they are instructed on the support forums to compile stuff or something.

To be honest, seeing the command line in all kind of support for Linux kinda does it for me (to stay away). If problems can only be solved with the command prompt, that is. Confused

bitRAKE wrote:
Intelectual property is the problem.
It's always the problem.

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Post 23 Dec 2009, 17:09
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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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kohlrak
Borsuc wrote:
DustWolf wrote:
This argument is ridiculous. You've said it all: You don't use Linux. Hence you have no idea what you're talking about.
So if I say that the LHC exists, I have no idea what I'm talking about -- I haven't been there right?

What I said wasn't for the average user btw... it was when I read all sorts of a bit more advanced than joe usage and they are instructed on the support forums to compile stuff or something.

To be honest, seeing the command line in all kind of support for Linux kinda does it for me (to stay away). If problems can only be solved with the command prompt, that is. Confused


See, there's your problem. You're making judgments without knowing the situation. It's not that these problems cannot be fixed with the command prompt, but that it is preferred. If you tell people to copy and paste commands to fix their problem, it'll fix their problem. If you choose the GUI method, you will have to explain all sorts of things. Take notice how long windows fixes are? Huge pages just on how to fix a bad registry key if the user isn't a power user. In linux, idiots, powerusers, and programmers alike can copy and paste a long list of commands into the terminal and watch the problems disappear like magic.
Post 24 Dec 2009, 02:32
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
kohlrak wrote:
In linux, idiots, powerusers, and programmers alike can copy and paste a long list of commands into the terminal and watch the problems disappear like magic.
how the hell do you expect them to learn how to use linux and not remain noobs forever if you give them something to copy and paste? Most of the time those shell solutions baffle me.

And I never said the Windows registry isn't a mess, but it's not really necessary to dwelve into it for most problems...

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Post 24 Dec 2009, 02:50
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
how the hell do you expect them to learn how to use linux and not remain noobs forever if you give them something to copy and paste? Most of the time those shell solutions baffle me.


I'm learning bash right now and they baffle me. However, if they have the incling to learn, they know where to go. However, linux isn't going to force it's users to be computer smart just to get support for it. I agree some people should have to learn a bit about computers, but if they're only going to watch youtube, visit facebook, type reports, listen to music and more, why would they have to learn how to use sed? Especially if they hopefully replace sed someday with something much easier to use...

Quote:
And I never said the Windows registry isn't a mess, but it's not really necessary to dwelve into it for most problems...


The same point could be made above. Anyway, the idea is that with the terminal, you can copy and paste, not have to sit there and read to find out where "run" is, then how to find the specific registry key, how to change it, what not to mess with, etc. IMO, that sort of thing is a waste of time.
Post 24 Dec 2009, 03:15
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
Do you think I was born knowing Windows? Back in the day I mostly learned it by fooling around with stuff (GUI makes it easier when you are impatient) and seeing friends instruct me how to do it. If they told me to copy-paste or they did it FOR me instead of letting me do my 'homework' with some assistance, I would have learned much slower. Smile

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Post 24 Dec 2009, 03:25
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
I think the advantage a GUI interface has is not for speed or accuracy, but for the lack of need to remember everything and the lack of need to type things.

For people that are interested in computers a command prompt is no impediment to use and they are willing to at least try.

But when I see the average user on a PC they are not interested to know how to make their tasks more efficient if it means having to remember exactly the strings to type. I have tried to show people how the command prompt can be really useful and they just don't want to know, it is "too complicated". The GUI is easier for them because they don't have to remember "esoteric stuff to type" they can simply see where to go and click-click-click.

I have seen people sit at a computer all day and do repetitive tasks using a GUI interface and wonder to myself how they can stand the tedium. point-click-point-click-point-click-point-click-enter and repeat. I then try to show them the command prompt and they scream with fear that they might "make a mistake and not know how to undo it", or "it looks ugly", or "they don't understand it", or any number of excuses. You can't force people to learn if they don't want to even try.
Post 24 Dec 2009, 03:29
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
revolution, the command prompt should be reserved for what it should be: automating tasks. Not for configuring your computer.
Post 24 Dec 2009, 03:47
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
No, the command prompt is for people that like command prompts. And GUIs are for people that like GUIs. And using a combination of the two are for people that understand the strengths and weaknesses of each and can use both to maximal effect.
Post 24 Dec 2009, 03:57
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
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shoorick
revolution wrote:
No, the command prompt is for people that like command prompts. And GUIs are for people that like GUIs. And using a combination of the two are for people that understand the strengths and weaknesses of each and can use both to maximal effect.

+2

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Post 24 Dec 2009, 05:54
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DustWolf



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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DustWolf
Ghh.... It's terrible to see how arguments always degenerate off topic here on this board.

You what the truth is? The truth is that Borsuc asked a Slackware user what Linux is all about. From this point all of his argument follows.

Borsuc: If you want to know what an easy user experience with Linux is, don't ask a Slackware user, ask a SUSE or Ubuntu user.

For the record, many laptop manufacturers now include a flash-bootable Linux distro inside the laptop hardware, to be used when Windows destroys itself. The little Linux distro has no trace of command prompts, and fills all the basic office requirements: It has a browser, an office suite and a messenger. It's what boots up when you press that little alternate power button on your ASUS. And guess what, they didn't include that because they wanted something for the advanced users.

In other words, Linux can be quite fine for beginners.

LP,
Jure
Post 24 Dec 2009, 23:40
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
Guess I should check out "end-user linux" again sometime soon, last time was Ubuntu 6.06 ("Dapper Drake") where I had to manually edit my Xorg config to get multi-monitor support working, and I had to go through a lot of manual hoops in a terminal to get Java up and running... linux keeps getting better and Ubuntu probably isn't the most noob-friendly distribution; it's heavily marketed towards "the regular joe" though, which is why I got pretty disappointed at all the glitches back then.

Anyway, back to the original topic... doesn't the guy see how hypocritical he is? It's basically "I want stuff to be free and users to have freedom of choice, as long as it's not Windows or Solaris (or ...)". That doesn't sound much like freedom to me, but someone wanting to replace one regime with another.

The GPL proponents have taken the words "free" and "freedom" hostage. You may or may not agree with their philosophy, but their use of the word "free" is twisted.

While I haven't looked, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy uses GCC proprietary extensions in his code - a lot of people seem to think that "portability" means "it works on gcc+linux", and not actually writing compiler-neutral clean code and supporting a broader range of operating systems (heck, sometimes I see "portable" code that fails to build on BSD). And then they slap autoconf junk ontop as a band-aid excuse, yuck.
Post 25 Dec 2009, 15:11
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TmX



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
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TmX
f0dder wrote:

The GPL proponents have taken the words "free" and "freedom" hostage. You may or may not agree with their philosophy, but their use of the word "free" is twisted.


what do you mean by twisted?

Quote:

The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html


I don't see anything twisted? Confused
Post 25 Dec 2009, 18:58
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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f0dder
Try reading through the actual text of the GPL rather than quoting the "philosophy". You should see that, while it keeps projects "open" it's not exactly "free".
Post 26 Dec 2009, 21:22
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
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ManOfSteel
f0dder wrote:
where I had to manually edit my Xorg config to get multi-monitor support working, and I had to go through a lot of manual hoops in a terminal to get Java up and running

But that's the *FUN* in *nix systems! It's one of the reasons I love *BSD. They let you do everything yourself. You know what does what. When something's messed up, 99.99% of cases it's because you haven't configured it properly, and when you do that right, you can probably keep the same conf file for years without modifying anything, even across releases. And if you want to change anything you just add a line or modify the value of a variable instead of wandering through a regedit or having to download some "tweaking" application from the Internet.


f0dder wrote:
doesn't the guy see how hypocritical he is? It's basically "I want stuff to be free and users to have freedom of choice, as long as it's not Windows or Solaris (or ...)". That doesn't sound much like freedom to me, but someone wanting to replace one regime with another.

Still. AFAIK there's ReactOS (yea, seriously), and OpenSolaris, and the entire BSD family plus all the specialized or desktop-oriented forks, and gazillions of GNU/Linux distros.
True, that's nothing in terms of market share, but it's still hundreds of different systems for every taste out there and IMHO it's a little more freedom than a duopoly that sets all the standards or twists existing ones and imposes its total hegemony on a several-trillion-dollars industry.

But I guess the Do What The Fuck You Want To Public License is the only truly free license. Wink


f0dder wrote:
heck, sometimes I see "portable" code that fails to build on BSD)

It probably has some Linux specificities (Linuxisms) and must be configure-ed and/or some of its code must be slightly modified. You could also install the Linux compatibility layer.


Last edited by ManOfSteel on 26 Dec 2009, 23:08; edited 1 time in total
Post 26 Dec 2009, 23:01
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
ManOfSteel wrote:
But that's the *FUN* in *nix systems!
And what's keeping away most people

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Post 26 Dec 2009, 23:07
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
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ManOfSteel
Don't care, hahaha. Twisted Evil















Seriously, some systems try to be more user-friendly* and provide either standardized good-enough-default configurations or special utilities to make configuration easier for noobs.















* In fact, "Unix is user-friendly. It's just very selective about who its friends are." Twisted Evil^2
Post 26 Dec 2009, 23:09
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
ManOfSteel wrote:
... gazillions of GNU/Linux distros
Yes, it is bewildering. How to choose the "right" one? What if I choose the "wrong" one? What is the proportion of right to wrong? How much time will it cost me to find the "right" one?

We are free to choose, yes, but not free to spend infinite amounts of time to "man" everything and post questions to forums and test 147 different proposed solutions.

I have nothing against Linux or *nix/BSD in general. It is a great idea that just blew itself out of proportion. A victim of its own freedom in a way. But I think the problem actually stems from the multitudinous choices and arrangements of hardware. If the hardware manufacturers were to offer drivers for their hardware then the nix stuff could run a lot smoother. So why are the drivers not available? Because the "gazillions of GNU/Linux distros" make the manufacturers say "we don't have time to support drivers for gazillions of GNU/Linux distros. Go and write your own drivers, but since we are all paranoid and secretive we won't show you the technical specs." A classic catch-22.

BTW: The DVD movie formats specifically excludes all open source OSes. Why? Because the DVD spec is closed and secret and you have to sign NDAs to get access. Yes, we have DVD player software for Linux, but it is illegal. And now with Blue-Ray it gets even harder. SD card anyone? Sorry, closed format. Many manufacturers are scared of open source because it will expose their "secrets", that is why they prefer to support Apple and MS. And the fact is that it is getting worse, not better. GPU spec? Sorry, most are closed. Buy Windows and install their binary blob drivers if you want to use their GPUs to full potential. Why isn't my favourite game available for Linux? Because we have no drivers for the audio/video, and besides your configuration might be incompatible and we don't have time to test our game in a gazillion different system configurations. DRM? Forget about open source for that!
Post 26 Dec 2009, 23:36
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ass0



Joined: 31 Dec 2008
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ass0
Wooot! i read an ananillion times the gazillion word!

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Post 27 Dec 2009, 00:23
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DustWolf



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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DustWolf
Borsuc wrote:
ManOfSteel wrote:
But that's the *FUN* in *nix systems!
And what's keeping away most people


Yes, forget the point that it is not actually the case and pick on the geek who is the only person in his country who has a dual-monitor setup and has not updated his Linux distro since 2006.
Post 27 Dec 2009, 01:02
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