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mattst88



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 260
Location: South Carolina
mattst88
I think you just completely missed my point.
Post 15 Jan 2010, 01:39
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booter



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 67
booter
Let's return to the starting point
Quote:
I don't want any of my work to give anyone a reason to support companies like Microsoft who try to limit people's freedoms.

1.,ReactOS (free open source clone of MS Windows) is coming
http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html
2. Freeware for MS Windows introduces idea of free software to masses.
3. Freeware for MS Windows reduces profits in software industry and consequently "hurts" Microsoft.
4. Nowdays nix is very well "absorbed" by big business, and regular open source freeware writers are actually working for them for free.
5. Both *nix and Windows are slowly coming to the end of their life span, as they both are based on different but way outdated philosophies.
6. If people were thinking independently they would outlaw software patents and maybe even proclaim non-profit use of any software to be free of charge Smile
Post 15 Jan 2010, 06:38
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
booter wrote:
Rookie wrote:
(settings go to the registry, data files go to appdata, binaries to program files etc).
That's what "decent" applications never do Smile

Hahaha, then 99% of "Windows-native" applications and 100% of OSS (GNU and otherwise) are indecent. Niiiiice!

Actually the only widely-used "decent" application I've seen is IrfanView since it still stores settings in its own directory in Program Files, a real PITA when your user has no admin privileges. I've not seen many like it since Windows 3.x and 95. But oops, it's only "decent" because of a bug that doesn't allow the user to store the .ini file in Documents and Settings even though it has a checkbox for that IIRC, hmm.

Have I just crushed that remaining 1%? Get real.


booter wrote:
1.,ReactOS (free open source clone of MS Windows) is coming http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

You mean it has been coming for, what, more than a decade, in a slow and painful birth?
And like its brother Wine (they're sharing code) it's bug ridden, I might add. Go figure, huh.
Plus it's still at alpha stage. By the time it reaches full compatibility with Windows XP/2003, Microsoft would've broken backward-compatibility. Hasn't that already begun with Vista and Seven?


booter wrote:
2. Freeware for MS Windows introduces idea of free software to masses.

Free as in free beer not as in freedom and transparency. Freeware is still proprietary and is diametrically opposed to transparency (i.e. open-source).


booter wrote:
3. Freeware for MS Windows reduces profits in software industry and consequently "hurts" Microsoft.

Why so much hate? Microsoft is just another corporation doing what corporations do: making profits.
Plus it gave the idiotic computer-using masses something easy to use. Shouldn't we be thanking them?


booter wrote:
4. Nowdays nix is very well "absorbed" by big business, and regular open source freeware writers are actually working for them for free.

Attention, people of Earth! Booter has brought us some news from Alpha Centauri.

UNIX(R) was born at the Bell Labs, at that time a subsidiary of AT&T, and it was licensed to universities, research organizations and corporations for lots of $$$.
Unix OSS began when 386BSD was released, so to speak, but corporations and governmental agencies kept financing the projects or contributing code.


booter wrote:
5. Both *nix and Windows are slowly coming to the end of their life span, as they both are based on different but way outdated philosophies.

Oh please, *nix coming to an end? After exactly 40 years of loyal services, it still does what it has (almost) always done. *BSD systems and some quality GNU/Linux distros are running most of the Internet and every supercomputer and cluster I can think of.
And millions around the globe are using one GNU/Linux distro or another as their No 1 desktop system. So yeah, dying...


booter wrote:
6. If people were thinking independently they would outlaw software patents and maybe even proclaim non-profit use of any software to be free of charge Smile

Microsoft and any other software company in the world are free to do business. The constitution(s) and civil code(s) say(s) so. That's private property 101. That's free-market capitalism 101. You don't like it?
Post 15 Jan 2010, 12:32
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
@mattst88: how so? I specifically said I am criticizing the "culture" not Linux itself. But I am more practical: as long as there's a (easy) solution, and I don't have to obviously go to the source code and make my huge modifications (and on every update), then I don't mind. In Windows, I had a solution. How can I 'redirect' that damn stupid HOME folder to a subdir in the app's folder?

ManOfSteel wrote:
Hahaha, then 99% of "Windows-native" applications and 100% of OSS (GNU and otherwise) are indecent. Niiiiice!
Yep, that's right. Here's a thing, the common excuse that Windows becomes more bloated the more you use it is solved. Windows does NOT become more bloated as you use more apps, it's YOUR idea of apps being part of the "system", rather than INDEPENDENT entities, that does it.

This sickening idea of apps being part of the system is like taking plug-and-play hardware and "fusing" it to the motherboard or something. What the hell? Who the fuck finds that 'convenient'?

ManOfSteel wrote:
Actually the only widely-used "decent" application I've seen is IrfanView since it still stores settings in its own directory in Program Files, a real PITA when your user has no admin privileges.
A real PITA? Who the fuck keeps his apps in Program Files? Now that I think about it, I am shocked that people with some expertise in computers, not average joes mind you, even USE the default folders of an OS instead of having their own customized ones. Confused

And you should look better next time at the 'decent' apps list. Interestingly even Blender stores its settings in a subfolder if it doesn't find a HOME environment variable (and it doesn't under Windows). Thank God for caring and smart developers!

Not to mention that people have even taken efforts to make the other apps portable (see PortableApps.com). You can't deny facts: it's much easier and convenient. Whether you care about it or not, or whether you don't mind doing two copies or installations is not the question -- it takes more user intervention and more time, and that's a fact.

Personally I like computers that are easy to use with as few user interaction as necessary. I don't see installs as necessary, on the contrary, I seem them as downgrading the very concept of ease-of-use. Not to mention the problems with some install packages.

And again, must I remind you that my Windows does not become bloated and slower with more apps... it's because of those like YOU that it does.

ManOfSteel wrote:
I've not seen many like it since Windows 3.x and 95. But oops, it's only "decent" because of a bug that doesn't allow the user to store the .ini file in Documents and Settings even though it has a checkbox for that IIRC, hmm.

Have I just crushed that remaining 1%? Get real.
Sorry bro but you simply have no idea what you are talking about -- the same way you criticize me of not using Linux and knowing about it, I can say you pretty much don't know much about Windows.

But of course you can always criticize Windows for being slow and crashing often and such because of the apps model YOU advocate. Hypocrisy might I add.

ALL of my apps are portable. 228 apps. Around HALF of them (114 apps) have a 'portable' option -- either by including the .ini file near the exe (it checks at startup if it's available) or by having some "factory default" that reads first which has an option to store the settings in a subdir.

The rest are either redirected with JauntePE (registry & rarely the AppData), hacked by me (disassembled and redirected to app folder), or redirected simply with environment variable launcher.

BTW as for 'hacking' the app, most are pretty easy -- all I have to do is make the stupid GetSpecialFolderPath function fail, and the app usually then will proceed to store the settings in its own folder.

ManOfSteel wrote:
Free as in free beer not as in freedom and transparency. Freeware is still proprietary and is diametrically opposed to transparency (i.e. open-source).
Huh? ReactOS is open source.

ManOfSteel wrote:
Plus it gave the idiotic computer-using masses something easy to use. Shouldn't we be thanking them?
With all due respect, I disagree about the direction it's going completely. I would never be thanking Microsoft for giving me a system with registry and, later, centralized folders choosed by them.

ManOfSteel wrote:
Oh please, *nix coming to an end? After exactly 40 years of loyal services, it still does what it has (almost) always done.
You're hilarious. He said "outdated" and you're talking about 40 years old. Laughing (not that you are wrong, just an observation!)

ManOfSteel wrote:
And millions around the globe are using one GNU/Linux distro or another as their No 1 desktop system. So yeah, dying...
you mean 4% Wink

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Post 15 Jan 2010, 17:41
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
Borsuc wrote:
Yep, that's right. Here's a thing, the common excuse that Windows becomes more bloated the more you use it is solved. Windows does NOT become more bloated as you use more apps, it's YOUR idea of apps being part of the "system", rather than INDEPENDENT entities, that does it.

[,,,]

And again, must I remind you that my Windows does not become bloated and slower with more apps... it's because of those like YOU that it does.

Parts of Windows itself are already bloated and every time Microsoft makes a new version it's more bloated than the older. The last version that can work normally on most of my machines is the decade-old Windows 2000 and at best XP.
Resource management (e.g. memory) is also not always optimum, euphemistically speaking.

Both startup and daily operation become slower within days of the initial setup, even if I only have less than 30 applications on some setups and I don't install any more. One reason is the registry, which is constantly accessed and modified, and becomes irreversibly fragmented. I never defended the registry concept (and there's nothing remotely similar under *nix systems), so no strawman fallacies please.

The system binaries (c:\Windows, c:\Windows\system32) and settings (HKLM, mostly) are separate from the user applications binaries (c:\Program Files) and settings (HKCU/%AppData%). I can't see how user applications are part of the "system" as you say unless you mean c:\ is the "system" which is... let's say, funny.
I also can't see how does installing binaries in Program Files and settings in %AppData% affect bloat or stability or anything, either positively or negatively. That just makes no sense whatsoever.


Borsuc wrote:
A real PITA?

Yes, a real PITA. And not only for me. Since you brought Blender up... oh, you should see how many times 3D artists complain on forums and IRC about their inability to save their settings! 3D artists have better things to do.
Some users are not administrators on their machines so they can't nor shouldn't modify Program Files. Also Blender is used in classes, and not only should students *not* have any privileges on "their" machines, they should also have their own, separate, directories for their customized settings and for saving their work. Same goes for all applications.
Users can use the *proper* directories (e.g. %AppData%) and they can Ctrl+U or add their own Python scripts all they want and live happily ever after.
More on this later...


Borsuc wrote:
Who the fuck keeps his apps in Program Files?

Um, almost everyone? Except you, of course.


Borsuc wrote:
Now that I think about it, I am shocked that people with some expertise in computers, not average joes mind you, even USE the default folders of an OS instead of having their own customized ones.

OMG!!!!! Yeah, it's a real shock that a directory named Program Files is actually used to store program files. Incredible!


Borsuc wrote:
Interestingly even Blender stores its settings in a subfolder if it doesn't find a HOME environment variable (and it doesn't under Windows).

People want intuitiveness and ease-of-use, isn't it Borsuc? Like a straightforward point-and-click setup wizard instead of an extractable zip archive.
Blender's setup does give the option between %AppData% (yeah, not $HOME, duh) and Program Files. Needless to say, if the administrator choses Program Files, and the end-user has no administrator privileges (common sense, eh?), the end-user is F.U.C.K.E.D. Of course the "good" administrator can install applications on another partition owned by EVERYONE so anyone with access to the machine can do anything to the directory including deletion or viral infection, and any small bug anywhere can easily bork everything. That's why the rigid hierarchy and LUA were invented in the first place.


Borsuc wrote:
You can't deny facts: it's much easier and convenient.

For you it's factual, apparently, since you've been religiously saying so for 5 or 6 pages, in this thread alone. Personally I don't give a shit. You're free to like it if you want. I don't give a shit about that either.


Borsuc wrote:
or whether you don't mind doing two copies or installations is not the question -- it takes more user intervention and more time, and that's a fact.

I've told you more than once (but you obviously can't read) that when I install an entire system from scratch or I upgrade an existing one, it takes at most 2 or 3 hours for downloading-installing everything all in all over a crappy connection, and I don't even have to restore my settings from backup, and I don't even have to move them from my home directory. The entire installation/upgrade is only about getting new binaries/documentation. My old settings are understood by the new binaries right away.


Borsuc wrote:
I don't see installs as necessary, on the contrary, I seem them as downgrading the very concept of ease-of-use

They are easy to use when their system is strictly standardized as in *nix systems, e.g. source building or RPMs for many GNU/Linux distros, ports or packages for *BSD, etc.
The same cannot be said about Windows applications (Microsoft's MSIs, InstallShield setups, etc. the list is very long) so I can understand your hostility towards it.


Borsuc wrote:
Sorry bro but you simply have no idea what you are talking about -- the same way you criticize me of not using Linux and knowing about it, I can say you pretty much don't know much about Windows.

Definitely, thou art the expert in those secret crafts My Lordship. While awaiting for the expertise panel's verdict, I'd like you to prove to me statistically that a 51% majority (I'm not too demanding) of *modern* applications (as in "younger than 3 years" / "not Windows 3.x/95") store binaries and settings in the same directory and don't use the appropriate directories (Program Files, Application Data, etc.)
I already know you won't find much outside your special collection.


Borsuc wrote:
But of course you can always criticize Windows for being slow and crashing often and such because of the apps model YOU advocate. Hypocrisy might I add.

Hypocrisy? You must not know what it means. I never said something and did the opposite, so I can't see how I could be a hypocrite. Feel free to remind me if I committed hypocritical felonies and quote the evidence.

This is a universal model since it is used in most modern systems, whether *nix or Windows. It works very well under *nix systems or at least it's not as related to overall stability and speed as you might think. Do you know how many times FreeBSD (with its horrible and outdated hierarchy, models, et al.) panicked on me, so far, for reasons not related to hardware malfunction? Not once.


Borsuc wrote:
ALL of my apps are portable. 228 apps.

Of course they are. You *choose* to use portable applications and modify the other half that aren't.
I only *happen* to have 1 "portable" application (which case I previously explained) and I don't pick applications according to their "portability" or lack of. I choose applications that work well and let me do my work.


Borsuc wrote:
The rest are either redirected with JauntePE (registry & rarely the AppData), hacked by me (disassembled and redirected to app folder), or redirected simply with environment variable launcher.

BTW as for 'hacking' the app, most are pretty easy -- all I have to do is make the stupid GetSpecialFolderPath function fail, and the app usually then will proceed to store the settings in its own folder.

Easy and intuitive, naturally!


Borsuc wrote:
Huh? ReactOS is open source.

Re-read what I wrote. Booter was talking about *freeware* not *open-source* and I was addressing *that* point.


Borsuc wrote:
I would never be thanking Microsoft for giving me a system with registry

Fine. Don't thank them. And don't use Windows either if you want. Hate them if you like. You seem good at hating things. Nuke'em to dust for fuck's sake! ... as if I cared.


Borsuc wrote:
You're hilarious. He said "outdated" and you're talking about 40 years old.

Hilarious hell yeah! But watch out, don't suffocate.

The wheel was invented 7,000 years ago. What's your point? Is it time to make square wheels yet?

I *explicitly* stated that *even* after these 40 years, it still works very well, and its concept is still 100% valid, when he was trying to prove otherwise. So I'll quote myself: "40 years of loyal services" and I'll add "... and counting".


Borsuc wrote:
you mean 4%

Millions nonetheless. Million *desktop* users where there were not much, just less than 10 years ago. And the userbase is growing.
Post 15 Jan 2010, 23:45
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booter



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 67
booter
ManOfSteel wrote:
booter wrote:
Rookie wrote:
(settings go to the registry, data files go to appdata, binaries to program files etc).
That's what "decent" applications never do Smile

Hahaha, then 99% of "Windows-native" applications and 100% of OSS (GNU and otherwise) are indecent. Niiiiice!

Did you expect more then 1%?

ManOfSteel wrote:
booter wrote:
1.,ReactOS (free open source clone of MS Windows) is coming http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

You mean it has been coming for, what, more than a decade, in a slow and painful birth?
And like its brother Wine (they're sharing code) it's bug ridden, I might add. Go figure, huh.
Plus it's still at alpha stage. By the time it reaches full compatibility with Windows XP/2003, Microsoft would've broken backward-compatibility. Hasn't that already begun with Vista and Seven?
Who cares about Vista and Windows 7? They are crap. MS is on its way down Smile

ManOfSteel wrote:
booter wrote:
2. Freeware for MS Windows introduces idea of free software to masses.

Free as in free beer not as in freedom and transparency. Freeware is still proprietary and is diametrically opposed to transparency (i.e. open-source).
GPL was designed for community projects. For individual creations it doesn't work well. I mean like if you wrote a poem would you distribute it under GPL?

Please note that I (and it looks like Borsuc too) belong to a significantant community of Windows users who prefer managing their systems not in a full agreement with MS "recommendations". We prefer portable sofware. don't use "standard folders", etc. We want to manage our systems ourselves, resisting pressure from software manufacturers, who have a "problem" with portability because portable software can not be protected, so it's not good from a business perspective.

*nix has its traditions with a long history. It may work very well, but many people just don't like its construction and rules. As I mentioned before, MS stepped on its way down and Linux is still trying to be at least as good as W2K.
I don't really care what would be the roots of the new generation of the OS, I hope not POSIX, though Smile
I would really love to have MinWin (from MS, google it) or even better its clone from ReactOS.
Post 16 Jan 2010, 08:27
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
booter wrote:
Did you expect more then 1%?

Um, I made it up, if you haven't noticed. But for such a concept that has been almost completely abandoned 15 years ago? No, I realistically wasn't expecting much more.


booter wrote:
Who cares about Vista and Windows 7? They are crap. MS is on its way down

Say what you want. But it's the way to go if you want to remain up to date with Microsoft, i.e. in this world not in lalaland. *Most* new computers are shipping with 7. And when XP reaches EOL in 2014, no software company in the Milky Way will target anything below Vista, and most of your applications will become incompatible one way or another, will fail to install or at least run properly, and you'll be stuck with older Windows and your outdated and buggy older applications. Ha! You still have 4 years though, so enjoy it fully while you still can.


booter wrote:
GPL was designed for community projects. For individual creations it doesn't work well. I mean like if you wrote a poem would you distribute it under GPL?

WTF? We're talking about software here not poetry. There's the CC if you want and many more I'm sure. There's a shitload of licenses for software documentation but I don't know if they're suitable for literary work though.
And BTW, a software you write yourself (alone) under GPL or any other license is still an "individual creation" by definition.


booter wrote:
significantant community of Windows users who prefer managing their systems not in a full agreement with MS "recommendations"

*All experienced users* want to master their systems, but it's not a reason for not using these systems in the proper way, like using the specially designed directories for specific files. I think THIS precisely is one of the things that do make sense in Windows.
Actually, of all computer users (with different levels of competence) I've talked to, I've never seen anyone wanting what you call "portable" applications. That must be a sub-culture or something.


booter wrote:
software manufacturers, who have a "problem" with portability because portable software can not be protected, so it's not good from a business perspective.

Can you even realize how stupid what you're saying is?

What does "portability" have to do with copyright protection? Even if that's completely illegal, no one prevents you from using the same software on a thousand machines. Even if it's not installed as you'd like it to be, you still "ported" the software to a thousand machines. Q.E.D.
In many countries with no serious copyright law enforcement, Windows, Office, Photoshop, Nero Burning ROM, AVs, WinZip, WinRAR, the latest games, etc. are used that way. Software and computer retailers never sell users a legal copy with a single, certified license. They install the same copy everywhere.

Besides, most OSS applications are not "portable" either. What's their excuse? Private property and profit too, huh?

The only things files cannot be protected from when they're "portable", i.e. when they're are not installed properly in the appropriate locations, is malevolent or accidental deletion, corruption, alteration, and viral infection.


booter wrote:
*nix has its traditions with a long history. It may work very well, but many people just don't like its construction and rules

And obviously many more people *do* like it or just don't care enough about those irrelevant details that you care about. I've never heard of people losing sleep over the *nix hierarchy, the binary / user settings separation, ownership and permission models, etc.


booter wrote:
Linux is still trying to be at least as good as W2K

As a side note, most people don't know or have ever used Windows 2000. They'll probably mistake it for Windows ME. You must be talking about XP.

I don't know the general feeling about GNU/Linux, but many people seem to like it much more than XP, Vista or 7.

I used most Windows versions from 3.0 to 7. I have Windows 2000 and FreeBSD as my main desktop systems (I almost never use Windows), and I can tell you FreeBSD wins on all counts of flexibility, stability, robustness, speed and security.


Last edited by ManOfSteel on 16 Jan 2010, 11:02; edited 1 time in total
Post 16 Jan 2010, 10:49
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
Quote:

I would really love to have MinWin (from MS, google it)

i love this one too, but till now, i still couldn't find any link to get it illegally.
btw, win2k8 with server core role is quite minwin too!!.

but i expect a simple explorer.exe in win2k8, at least if somebody make it, i guess i would switch to win2k8 server core.
Post 16 Jan 2010, 10:59
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
Isn't MinWin just a set of OS components that are regularly "inserted" into Microsoft's systems: 2003 Server, Vista, 7, etc.
Post 16 Jan 2010, 11:12
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bitshifter



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Massachusetts, USA
bitshifter
My friend invited me over to his house to check out
his two new computers which have vista and windows 7
The first thing i did was fire up task manager and OMG
The wonder you need so much ram, it uses half just for idle.
I mainly use XP, it looks good and is a lot less memory hog.
Im running 12 processes and using 70mb of ram to do it.
When i push the power button XP is ready before the monitor is Razz
Its sad that they think you need the newest OS every two years.
The chip gets twice as good but the software gets twice as slow.
We are going nowhere when this happens, just more whistles and bells.
I just dont look forward to even having a 64 bit system with them OS
Post 16 Jan 2010, 12:01
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
ManOfSteel wrote:
The system binaries (c:\Windows, c:\Windows\system32) and settings (HKLM, mostly) are separate from the user applications binaries (c:\Program Files) and settings (HKCU/%AppData%). I can't see how user applications are part of the "system" as you say unless you mean c:\ is the "system" which is... let's say, funny.
I also can't see how does installing binaries in Program Files and settings in %AppData% affect bloat or stability or anything, either positively or negatively. That just makes no sense whatsoever.
Oh sorry my fault I wasn't clear. When I mean "system" I mean a specific configuration for one specific machine. i.e not PLUG AND PLAY.

Like I said before, it's like fusing a plug'n'play device to your machine... sorry but I don't find that convenient at all and cannot understand anyone who advocates such model.

ManOfSteel wrote:
Yes, a real PITA. And not only for me.
Maybe you should stop your selective quoting because the very next phrase was supposed to continue this one. Razz

ManOfSteel wrote:
Some users are not administrators on their machines so they can't nor shouldn't modify Program Files. Also Blender is used in classes, and not only should students *not* have any privileges on "their" machines, they should also have their own, separate, directories for their customized settings and for saving their work. Same goes for all applications.
Users can use the *proper* directories (e.g. %AppData%) and they can Ctrl+U or add their own Python scripts all they want and live happily ever after.
More on this later...
desktop desktop desktop...
ease-of-use ease-of-use ease-of-use for ONE freaking user. That's what I am complaining about.

I'm not asking for Linux to drop the multi-user approach, I ASK THAT IT GIVES ME A FUCKING OPTION TO NOT USE THAT FUCKING APPROACH.

But of course, I get smacked. That's the friendly Linux community/culture for you. I couldn't care less about multiple users, I couldn't care less about classes, I'M NOT A TEACHER, I WANT A 1-USER COMPUTER WITH MAXIMUM EASE-OF-USE FOR THIS, OR AT THE VERY LEAST TO BE ABLE TO CONFIGURE IT THUS.

HARDWARE DOES NOT HAVE SUCH THING, I WANT IT TO BE JUST AS INTUITIVE AS PLUG AND FUCKING PLAY HARDWARE.

Did you get that already?
Again, is it so fucking much to ask? Apparently, from Linux guys, yep.

ManOfSteel wrote:
Um, almost everyone? Except you, of course.
Their problem, their fault. Wink

ManOfSteel wrote:
OMG!!!!! Yeah, it's a real shock that a directory named Program Files is actually used to store program files. Incredible!
Yeah it is! Real shock. Because it's on the C partition while D is my own customized partition (no fucking OS-specific crap).

ManOfSteel wrote:
People want intuitiveness and ease-of-use, isn't it Borsuc? Like a straightforward point-and-click setup wizard instead of an extractable zip archive.
Zip archive? Much easier than an install, to even do multiple applications at once, is to select the file (under Total Commander), press F5/select the F5 option (copy), select the path, press enter.

ManOfSteel wrote:
Blender's setup does give the option between %AppData% (yeah, not $HOME, duh) and Program Files. Needless to say, if the administrator choses Program Files, and the end-user has no administrator privileges (common sense, eh?), the end-user is F.U.C.K.E.D. Of course the "good" administrator can install applications on another partition owned by EVERYONE so anyone with access to the machine can do anything to the directory including deletion or viral infection, and any small bug anywhere can easily bork everything. That's why the rigid hierarchy and LUA were invented in the first place.
Homework for you: write this 100 times on a paper:

Code:
1-user system.    


Get it already?

I don't CARE about fucking multiple users, Linux is FUCKED UP in philosophy because it's the fucking multiple users admins who should make a fucking effort to set it up for their crappy config than us, ordinary people, who want a fucking ease of use system, NOT RUN A FUCKING CLASS WITH STUDENTS.

Until Linux drops its "we won't change it, cause we don't wanna", it will remain into the "sucks" category for me and a lot of others.

ManOfSteel wrote:
For you it's factual, apparently, since you've been religiously saying so for 5 or 6 pages, in this thread alone. Personally I don't give a shit. You're free to like it if you want. I don't give a shit about that either.
Sorry, let's take back a bit. You showed me an example how you can 'deinstall' an app by typing something on the command prompt.

Do you seriously want to measure how long that takes in comparison to just pressing delete on the keyboard? Really? Rolling Eyes

Just facts.

ManOfSteel wrote:
I've told you more than once (but you obviously can't read) that when I install an entire system from scratch or I upgrade an existing one, it takes at most 2 or 3 hours for downloading-installing everything all in all over a crappy connection, and I don't even have to restore my settings from backup, and I don't even have to move them from my home directory. The entire installation/upgrade is only about getting new binaries/documentation. My old settings are understood by the new binaries right away.
Rolling Eyes

I'm talking about a NEW system, a NEW harddrive. A NEW rig.

Of course, such a thing (getting a completely fresh rig) is not common under Linux philosophy: after all, it requires a lot of effort to reinstall everything. Rolling Eyes

Not for me though, installing a new rig with all my previous stuff is as easy as copying all the folders in my personal partition. Takes around 3 secs of my time. How much does it take you? Wink

ManOfSteel wrote:
Definitely, thou art the expert in those secret crafts My Lordship. While awaiting for the expertise panel's verdict, I'd like you to prove to me statistically that a 51% majority (I'm not too demanding) of *modern* applications (as in "younger than 3 years" / "not Windows 3.x/95") store binaries and settings in the same directory and don't use the appropriate directories (Program Files, Application Data, etc.)
I already know you won't find much outside your special collection.
Majority apps are pretty much crap, there's always lighter alternatives (which is what I'm using). Most "major" apps are extremely bloated. And also, I didn't say they do store their settings there by default, I said you have the OPTION to. Example: Cockos Reaper.

ManOfSteel wrote:
Of course they are. You *choose* to use portable applications and modify the other half that aren't.
I only *happen* to have 1 "portable" application (which case I previously explained) and I don't pick applications according to their "portability" or lack of. I choose applications that work well and let me do my work.
You do know there are hundreds of alternatives, so what makes you choose one over another -- I'm sure you haven't tried them all. Me:

No registry bloat, no AppData usage, light apps have a very high priority.

Here's a list of freeware portable apps, I'm sure they can be used for many purposes: (and they're obviously free, so you have to compare them to free also, not commercial).

http://www.portablefreeware.com/

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Post 16 Jan 2010, 23:11
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TmX



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TmX
@Borsuc

I guess GoboLinux will suits you?
I personally have never used it, though...

Wink
Post 17 Jan 2010, 02:19
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booter



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booter
ManOfSteel wrote:
...
booter wrote:
GPL was designed for community projects. For individual creations it doesn't work well. I mean like if you wrote a poem would you distribute it under GPL?

WTF? We're talking about software here not poetry. There's the CC if you want and many more I'm sure. There's a shitload of licenses for software documentation but I don't know if they're suitable for literary work though.
And BTW, a software you write yourself (alone) under GPL or any other license is still an "individual creation" by definition.

You're completely missed my point. If you carefully crafted something (program, poem, or whatever else) you may consider it to be your art work and do not want other people to modify it "freely" at their discretion. That's opposite to a community projects, for wich GPL was designed.
BTW, I couldn't find the license that would guarantee 100% legal protection to software author, otherwise I would release some interesting stuff.
Post 17 Jan 2010, 11:37
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
TmX wrote:
@Borsuc

I guess GoboLinux will suits you?
I personally have never used it, though...

Wink
Wow that seems very interesting indeed, thank you I absolutely never heard about it before. Although still can you redirect the $Home env or do I have to hack it like in Windows right? (make no mistake, this is not a fault of Linux, it's a fault of the apps -- although I think with a shell script/launcher for an app I can modify env variables for a specific app, right?).

Since I'm noob at Linux, is the distro important? For instance, for GoboLinux, does it mean that some things won't be compatible (most important to me would be wine)?

Anyway I still wanna know how is the hierarchy inside a 'dev/<device>' in a more popular distro?

(also I read that wine has problems with USB translation Sad, hopefully it gets fixed by the time (future) I try some Linux Smile).


I have to admit I'm a bit excited about this GoboLinux distro, thanks again. Very Happy

BTW sorry for another annoying question but how can you 'configure' the distro to suit your needs -- I don't mean at installation, I mean to be pre-configured so everytime you install you don't have to configure anything. Like how you use 'nLite' for Windows XP for "unattended installations", something like that. There's gotta be some automated tool for Linux, hopefully. Wink

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Post 17 Jan 2010, 20:41
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booter



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booter
Maybe the root of those debates in a different position on relations between OS applications and users.
I personally prefer all applications to be treated and managed as an independent entities insulated from each other and managed separately. Ideally I would prefer each application to run in a separate virtual machine.
In my opinion OS shouldn't care about application-specific stuff, but provide system resources to applications in a strictly controllable fashion.

Restricting user rights (in multi-user system) can not be enforced 100% reliably without enormous administrative efforts (and limiting users' ability to access physical computer). It's much simpler to give each user his own virtual machine and allow him to do whatever he wants with it, though controlling permissions of this machine.
Post 18 Jan 2010, 03:00
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TmX



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TmX
Borsuc wrote:
although I think with a shell script/launcher for an app I can modify env variables for a specific app, right?).


i guess that's possible, by calling:
set HOME=/path/to/directory, or something like that

Borsuc wrote:

Since I'm noob at Linux, is the distro important? For instance, for GoboLinux, does it mean that some things won't be compatible (most important to me would be wine)?


i can't say whether this distro important or not, but it's not really popular for sure, compared to some big distros like Ubuntu or Slackware.
btw, wine is already prepackaged for Gobo:
http://recipes.gobolinux.org/r/?list=Wine&ver=1.1.15-r1

Borsuc wrote:

Anyway I still wanna know how is the hierarchy inside a 'dev/<device>' in a more popular distro?


i myself don't know. maybe someone with better Linux experience can enlighten us? Wink

Borsuc wrote:

. Like how you use 'nLite' for Windows XP for "unattended installations", something like that. There's gotta be some automated tool for Linux, hopefully. Wink


You need a "kickstart configurator", or something like that.
Example: http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6747 (for Red Hat)
Other distros should have their own similar tool.
Post 18 Jan 2010, 03:30
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mattst88



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mattst88
If your most important application is WINE, you shouldn't be using Linux to begin with.
Post 18 Jan 2010, 05:31
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
I don't have alternatives. Not good ones anyway. Sometimes WINE is more stable than Win7 on some programs. And obviously I can't keep XP forever, devs won't make drivers for it anymore. Sad

plus I absolutely hate the newer Windows versions. Mad
Post 18 Jan 2010, 17:05
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
@TmX: thank you for the answers Smile

TmX wrote:
i guess that's possible, by calling:
set HOME=/path/to/directory, or something like that
woot! can you also "get the current directory/path" (of the script/batch file) like in NT with %~dp0 (I assume there's gotta be a way obviously).

TmX wrote:
i can't say whether this distro important or not, but it's not really popular for sure, compared to some big distros like Ubuntu or Slackware.
of course, but I meant if the distro is significant to compatibility, i.e if you have issues running an app made for Ubuntu on Gobo or something, like you have when running let's say Win95 apps on XP sometimes (I realize this can sound noobish, obviously I don't know what I'm talking about, it's why I ask Razz).
TmX wrote:
btw, wine is already prepackaged for Gobo:
http://recipes.gobolinux.org/r/?list=Wine&ver=1.1.15-r1
GoboLinux is starting to sound better and better lol.
TmX wrote:
You need a "kickstart configurator", or something like that.
Example: http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6747 (for Red Hat)
Other distros should have their own similar tool.
Ok I found one for GoboLinux: http://www.gobolinux.org/?page=livecd

but it seems it only works on Gobo/Linux (doh) so I have a bit of a trouble understanding it -- obviously my fault here. (like any new thing until I get used to it). But good to know that at least it's possible lol Very Happy

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Post 18 Jan 2010, 17:11
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TmX



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TmX
Borsuc wrote:
woot! can you also "get the current directory/path" (of the script/batch file) like in NT with %~dp0 (I assume there's gotta be a way obviously).


pwd... i guess
i'm not really sure, though
Post 19 Jan 2010, 16:28
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