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kohlrak



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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Location: Uncle Sam's Pad
kohlrak
Quote:
As for motivations behind certain behaviours, I expect it is true. Men often have desires to have sex with women (and vice-versa also, of course). Nothing basically wrong with that. And treating someone in a nice way in order to increase one's chances of fulfilling a desire is perfectly natural. Why should it be a bad thing?


Cultural and religious reasons, really. Take out the culture and religion and all possibility of diseases and unwanted pregnancy, and i'm sure you could get any man or woman in the world to have sex with you lest they have a jealous partner. It certainly feels good, so unless there is a reason not to, everyone would do it. Laughing

Truly, it is a matter of cultural inhibitions. It therefore begins to make you wonder, that if our purpose is to reproduce to become more advanced, why did humans invent rules against sex? Anyone could find reasons for other rules, but why do humans get jealous? Why did humans (or a god) come up with rules that promote exclusive relationships?

The issue isn't that sex for pleasure or such is bad, the issue is why anyone would ever consider it bad. If evolution is true, what caused mankind to evolve to include exclusive relationships as part of cultural and religious rules, and even laws? If religion is not true, why would God (or The Gods) desire that humans have exclusive relationships? Better yet, why is today's society changing in a way that those rules are more flexible to allow more and more activities that may increase one's chances of violating those rules?

Don't get me wrong, this is not to turn into a debate of religion and evolution, as it honestly makes little sense in either theory. This is an honest question we should honestly ask ourselves. I don't intend to insult anyone of favorable position to those rules, i merely wonder if there is something about it that we don't understand.
Post 19 Dec 2009, 05:57
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ass0



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ass0
Actually, (right now) men are needless in order to reproduce (damn clonists!) xD.
So a society of pure women is possible =p. Yeah fellaz we are useless... Embarassed

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Post 19 Dec 2009, 06:01
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
ass0 wrote:
Actually, (right now) men are needless in order to reproduce (damn clonists!) xD.
So a society of pure women is possible =p. Yeah fellaz we are useless... Embarassed


Possible, but we are not useless. The female sex drive is pretty strong. I can honestly say that most women (if not all) that I've met in my life have a stronger sex drive than I do. Sometimes it makes me wonder if I have a severe lack of hormones or something. Laughing We're very necessary as far as they're concerned.
Post 19 Dec 2009, 06:26
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ass0



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ass0
kohlrak wrote:
Possible, but we are not useless. The female sex drive is pretty strong. I can honestly say that most women (if not all) that I've met in my life have a stronger sex drive than I do. Sometimes it makes me wonder if I have a severe lack of hormones or something. Laughing We're very necessary as far as they're concerned.
Do you know those portable boyfriends called dildos?

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Post 19 Dec 2009, 06:40
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
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ManOfSteel
sleepsleep wrote:
she is my housemate but now not anymore.

She wasn't reading this thread, was she? I hope it's not all because of me! *me goes and hides in the shadowed corner in shame* Embarassed
Post 19 Dec 2009, 11:11
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ManOfSteel



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ManOfSteel
kohlrak wrote:
why did humans invent rules against sex? Anyone could find reasons for other rules, but why do humans get jealous? Why did humans (or a god) come up with rules that promote exclusive relationships?

1. Values and norms may be used by rulers as forms of social control.
2. Jealousy breeds competition => natural selection. *me hears Borsuc shouting about the Paleolithic*
3. The period of human gestation is 9 months (half the maximum -- elephants) and even though the young are fully developed at birth, it still takes years for them to become mature and independent. So monogamy may be better since it increases stability in the couple and brings a more appropriate and healthy environment for the young. Besides, it's not like women can get pregnant a thousand times in their lives.
Post 19 Dec 2009, 11:12
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ManOfSteel



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ManOfSteel
ass0 wrote:
Actually, (right now) men are needless in order to reproduce (damn clonists!) xD.
So a society of pure women is possible =p. Yeah fellaz we are useless... Embarassed

Cloning doesn't really work well yet to be applied to humans, unless you're looking for a Dr. Moreau horror show.
And unless you take DNA before birth, it's already decaying. Most mice die within weeks, puppies within months and sheep within a few years. Plus it takes hundreds and thousands of attempts for a single success. I think it's way cheaper to just have sex.


ass0 wrote:
Do you know those portable boyfriends called dildos?

Hahaha, it's like telling women: do you know those portable and FREE girlfriends called hands?
Post 19 Dec 2009, 11:22
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
ManOfSteel wrote:
They don't really need to. It's the "zodiac prediction" from my above post that took care of it and got them together in the first place.
You're right. It is a zodiac prediction, even though you were sarcastic. Otherwise please predict EXACTLY within a small margin of error who will date who and stuff like that. Also EXACTLY when they will have sex and EXACTLY how they will conceive a baby... after all, you surely must do better than a zodiac prediction, because what you said is like saying "it was fate who destined them to do it!".

ass0 wrote:
Actually, (right now) men are needless in order to reproduce (damn clonists!) xD.
So a society of pure women is possible =p. Yeah fellaz we are useless... Embarassed
Yeah we're useless for reproducing. What's the big deal? That's one of the first evolutionary stages. I think we moved on from there a long time ago. You know, unless you consider yourself at that primitive level.

Was Tesla useless? I mean, he was celibate, after all... Rolling Eyes

I'd say he was one of the most advanced human beings at that time. Too bad that more than half a century after his death people are still the same Sad

kohlrak wrote:
The issue isn't that sex for pleasure or such is bad, the issue is why anyone would ever consider it bad.
The issue is that pleasure is bad.

Do you consider weaklings who succumb to the Matrix or other pleasures enlightened or worthy of a "higher plane" (as in religion)? It's it OBVIOUS where this norm comes from?

kohlrak wrote:
It therefore begins to make you wonder, that if our purpose is to reproduce to become more advanced, why did humans invent rules against sex?
Are you joking with that first part? That's the opposite of becoming more advanced. Rolling Eyes

Choose objectively:

1) a caveman who, when given pleasure, will not do anything else, and would take drugs (pleasure after all...)
2) an advanced being, half "cyborg", immortal, can duplicate with REASON (not pleasure) if it rarely needs to, and is not a prisoner of pleasure. One who 'feels happiness' by being rational, instead of taking drugs.

Who is more advanced? Which one is a higher, more enlightened intellectual being?

This answers your religion question as well. Which one is more likable to God?

And of course, with no bad traits to compare you can't filter out the weaklings, so in religion terms, that's why temptation and falling to it make you a weakling and not worthy of God's place... he doesn't need weaklings who have such weak wills so as to succumb to pleasures Razz (even though they have a CHOICE, unlike let's say, animals).

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Post 19 Dec 2009, 16:49
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
1. Values and norms may be used by rulers as forms of social control.


Why would they care to control that of all things?

Quote:
2. Jealousy breeds competition => natural selection. *me hears Borsuc shouting about the Paleolithic*


Then why do women get jelous? A man doesn't run out of sperm as easily as women fail to get pregnant. One man could impregnate many women. So, it would still make no sense for a woman to desire an exclusive relationship.

Quote:
3. The period of human gestation is 9 months (half the maximum -- elephants) and even though the young are fully developed at birth, it still takes years for them to become mature and independent. So monogamy may be better since it increases stability in the couple and brings a more appropriate and healthy environment for the young. Besides, it's not like women can get pregnant a thousand times in their lives.


There were times in history (and still exist today) where polygamy still provides adequate care for the child. More family to raise the child, more brothers and sisters for the child to learn from, etc. Still, people desire exclusive relationships.

Quote:
The issue is that pleasure is bad.

Do you consider weaklings who succumb to the Matrix or other pleasures enlightened or worthy of a "higher plane" (as in religion)? It's it OBVIOUS where this norm comes from?


Are you Buddhist? I don't see how pleasure is bad. If pleasure was bad, nature (or God) wouldn't likely let us have it. Pleasure is motivation. The key is to not let this motivation to become a motivation that causes harm or to become lack of motivation.

Quote:
Are you joking with that first part? That's the opposite of becoming more advanced. Rolling Eyes


Howso?

Quote:
Choose objectively:

1) a caveman who, when given pleasure, will not do anything else, and would take drugs (pleasure after all...)


He is motivated indeed. Are all drugs bad?

Quote:
2) an advanced being, half "cyborg", immortal, can duplicate with REASON (not pleasure) if it rarely needs to, and is not a prisoner of pleasure. One who 'feels happiness' by being rational, instead of taking drugs.


If this thing is immune to drugs, it is immune to feeling happiness (pleasure). Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with duplication for sake of pleasure (makes no sense), but there are ways to induce pleasure without causing (much) harm.

Quote:
Who is more advanced? Which one is a higher, more enlightened intellectual being?


Is intellectual more advanced? If I was all intellectual and had no motivation, nothing would ever get done. Laughing

Quote:
This answers your religion question as well. Which one is more likable to God?


A blind servant who would be much happier taking orders and being rewarded with pleasure from God, rather than taking pleasure for themselves at the expense of others. An intellectual who feels no pleasure is not motivated, and does nothing for God (and therefore is unworthy). I think God would rather have a sinner who does something than an intellectual who pretends he's better than God.

Quote:
And of course, with no bad traits to compare you can't filter out the weaklings, so in religion terms, that's why temptation and falling to it make you a weakling and not worthy of God's place... he doesn't need weaklings who have such weak wills so as to succumb to pleasures Razz (even though they have a CHOICE, unlike let's say, animals).


What religion are you looking at? Just in this very debate, from Judaism and Christianity, Eve (and all the animals actually) was made for Adam's pleasure (do not confuse this with sexism, however). You see, God isn't about resisting pleasures, but knowing which pleasures and when to partake and which pleasures not to partake and when not to partake. According to many religions today, God created many, many things for man's pleasure: Things, urges, et cetera.
Post 20 Dec 2009, 00:32
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
kohlrak wrote:
Are you Buddhist? I don't see how pleasure is bad. If pleasure was bad, nature (or God) wouldn't likely let us have it. Pleasure is motivation. The key is to not let this motivation to become a motivation that causes harm or to become lack of motivation.
Pleasure is indeed a motivator, for animals who can't reason. For example, animals would not reproduce otherwise and their species survival would be at stake.

But humans can use reason to do so. Pleasure was needed in a previous evolutionary stage, but we have to let go of it, it only drags us back now. We're already in the next stage. I'm not sure what follows but... there's only one way to find out, and that is, move from the previous stage, because it only happens in steps. Wink

kohlrak wrote:
If this thing is immune to drugs, it is immune to feeling happiness (pleasure). Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with duplication for sake of pleasure (makes no sense), but there are ways to induce pleasure without causing (much) harm.
Mental happiness is not the same as body pleasure. Body pleasure is what your body releases into your brain to make it "feel good", it is no different from drugs. Mental happiness happens 'directly' in the brain, no illusionary substance needed. Razz

kohlrak wrote:
An intellectual who feels no pleasure is not motivated, and does nothing for God (and therefore is unworthy).
Then he's not an intellectual. An intellectual's motivation is mental activities (includes mental happiness). Not just work, mind you! Art, entertainment, these are mental activities. Sometimes recreational activities are as well. Of course it depends, there's some forms of entertainment that are not quite so mental.

kohlrak wrote:
What religion are you looking at?
My own interpretation of Christianity Laughing (well my 'religion' is somewhat of interpretations from others, it's not fanatically one-sided or anything)
Post 20 Dec 2009, 17:40
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
Pleasure is indeed a motivator, for animals who can't reason. For example, animals would not reproduce otherwise and their species survival would be at stake.

But humans can use reason to do so. Pleasure was needed in a previous evolutionary stage, but we have to let go of it, it only drags us back now. We're already in the next stage. I'm not sure what follows but... there's only one way to find out, and that is, move from the previous stage, because it only happens in steps.


If reason is a motivator, then why are so many still motivated by pleasure? Steps for sure, if you believe in evolution, for we are taking just baby steps. Human beings are far from leaving the pleasure standard. And it's a bad idea to force evolutiion.

Quote:
Mental happiness is not the same as body pleasure. Body pleasure is what your body releases into your brain to make it "feel good", it is no different from drugs. Mental happiness happens 'directly' in the brain, no illusionary substance needed. Razz


Via chemicals. Not just because it is said that the brain is almost entirely chemical, but because happiness still isn't accomplished without some degree of pleasure. Happiness is the result of pleasures. Upon accomplishing things, your heart rate slows (and probably a chemical releases as well) inducing a feeling of relief and accomplishment... pleasure...

Quote:
Then he's not an intellectual. An intellectual's motivation is mental activities (includes mental happiness). Not just work, mind you! Art, entertainment, these are mental activities. Sometimes recreational activities are as well. Of course it depends, there's some forms of entertainment that are not quite so mental.


Strange, I could've sworn that all those things end up releasing chemicals in your brain (especially Art forms like Visual and Auditorial art).

Quote:
My own interpretation of Christianity Laughing (well my 'religion' is somewhat of interpretations from others, it's not fanatically one-sided or anything)


Where are you interpreting that from?
Post 20 Dec 2009, 22:49
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
kohlrak wrote:
If reason is a motivator, then why are so many still motivated by pleasure? Steps for sure, if you believe in evolution, for we are taking just baby steps. Human beings are far from leaving the pleasure standard. And it's a bad idea to force evolutiion.
Because most humans are irrational and don't want to go. We're not far, but a baby who doesn't want to walk will never learn to walk. That doesn't mean he is far...

kohlrak wrote:
Via chemicals. Not just because it is said that the brain is almost entirely chemical, but because happiness still isn't accomplished without some degree of pleasure. Happiness is the result of pleasures. Upon accomplishing things, your heart rate slows (and probably a chemical releases as well) inducing a feeling of relief and accomplishment... pleasure...
Happiness is not vile... pleasure works like drugs, on the other hand. The more you get it, the less "pleasurable" it is and the more you want... most drugs and sex feel best "the first time". Drugs are much more powerful of course.

Saying that drugs are like happiness is like saying that physical pain is the same as depression. Being relaxed and calm has nothing to do with it either. You are relaxed when you have lack of oxygen in the brain too.

kohlrak wrote:
Strange, I could've sworn that all those things end up releasing chemicals in your brain (especially Art forms like Visual and Auditorial art).
Neural signals aren't chemicals. Well you could say that everything is chemical, but you know what I'm talking about Wink

kohlrak wrote:
Where are you interpreting that from?
My analysis and experiences over the years. I've been mostly an "outsider" in most of them, including hypothetical situations by holding mirrors (e.g: aliens identical to humans but... well... aliens) to drop all favoritism aside. (i.e I am entitled more than X because I am human/white/whatever).

The real "analysis" that changed the thing how i perceive it is by something that we, more or less, have already here. Robots and computers. And why humans are wasteful creatures with pitiful goals (pleasure) when it doesn't change them.

A good book will expand your intellect. A good story will expand your imagination. A good movie will inspire your artistic motion angle.

A good pleasure destroys time of your life. It is nothing but wasteful primitive illusion that does nothing at all to you -- you might as well artificially impose it on yourself if that's what you seek. -- like how they did with rats and electrodes, where they were provided with a button to give instant pleasure. -- they did so until they starved to death. Very enlightened goal in life. (imagine what they could have done to improve themselves and their "souls", since we're speaking about religion, had they cherised their time properly)

You may say that what else there is to life, but it is exactly this wasteful thinking that, in my humble opinion, a possible god doesn't want, which is why he put us a limited time on Earth, not permanent, to filter out people who "expand" in THEMSELVES (and their capacities) from those who stagnate and prefer their pleasures as ultimate goal. He doesn't want "dirty" people from Earth into Heaven -- by 'dirty' I mean people who see nothing more apart from their pleasures on Earth. Heaven is supposed to be a much better place with much higher 'dimensions'... it's obvious those who think that life is fulfilled by pleasure and they should not continually expand something (be it imagination, inspirations, whatever) to improve and improve yourself are not suited for "the next big thing", so they are not suited for Heaven either, whatever heaven might be.

Think how would robots who have no notion of pleasure view us "retarded monkeys" as, when we go around them and beg them for pleasure like slaves... and then see us wastefully doing nothing but feeling good about our illusions. It's like we are willing slaves to them. Think of it from an outsider point of view, what good does taking drugs or putting electrodes to simulate the ultimate pleasure do apart from wasting energy for nothing since you will NOT improve yourself... in fact you will only need more next time to compensate!

Sorry for lengthy opinion. Smile

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Post 20 Dec 2009, 23:43
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bitshifter



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bitshifter
Intel should create a new register Smile
Code:
mov sex,1
    
Post 20 Dec 2009, 23:54
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ass0



Joined: 31 Dec 2008
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ass0
Didn't they?
Code:
push cx
pop cx
push cx
pop cx
push cx
pop cx
push cx
pop cx
...
    

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Post 21 Dec 2009, 00:16
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
c isn't pronounced more like 'sea'? wouldn't it be 'six'? Confused
Post 21 Dec 2009, 04:10
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ass0



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ass0
Heeh, in Spanish is pronounced like 'sex'. xD

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Post 21 Dec 2009, 09:21
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
Because most humans are irrational and don't want to go. We're not far, but a baby who doesn't want to walk will never learn to walk. That doesn't mean he is far...


If that child prefers crawling despite the already existant motivation, there's not much you can do, and the child is indeed far. If evolution is true, and if this is the way for us to evolve, then nature will provide a more suitable means.

Quote:
Happiness is not vile... pleasure works like drugs, on the other hand. The more you get it, the less "pleasurable" it is and the more you want... most drugs and sex feel best "the first time". Drugs are much more powerful of course.

Saying that drugs are like happiness is like saying that physical pain is the same as depression. Being relaxed and calm has nothing to do with it either. You are relaxed when you have lack of oxygen in the brain too.


I'm not saying they are the same thing. I'm saying that they are caused by those things. If I pump someone full of morphine, I can be pretty sure they will be happy.

Anyway, to go with your example. Drugs always need a higher dosage or a replacement to cause pleasure again. Let's put it this way, discovering that combining 2 groups of 2 of the same item tends to result in 1 group with 4 of the same item, usually, does not constantly make people happy. Now that you have solved that puzzle, you must come up with another one. You must replace that puzzle with a more difficult puzzle.

Quote:
Neural signals aren't chemicals. Well you could say that everything is chemical, but you know what I'm talking about Wink


Depends how loose your deffinition of chemical is. Razz

Quote:
My analysis and experiences over the years. I've been mostly an "outsider" in most of them, including hypothetical situations by holding mirrors (e.g: aliens identical to humans but... well... aliens) to drop all favoritism aside. (i.e I am entitled more than X because I am human/white/whatever).


In other words, you look at a bunch of people and what they say and are assuming. You're assuming from second hand experience, which, no offense, is like making a claim on what it's like to see a rainbow if you've been blind from birth.

Quote:
The real "analysis" that changed the thing how i perceive it is by something that we, more or less, have already here. Robots and computers. And why humans are wasteful creatures with pitiful goals (pleasure) when it doesn't change them.


Do me a favor and elaborate on what all those "it"s are, along with whatever "the thing how i perceive it" is. No offense, but I have no clue what you're saying.

Quote:
A good book will expand your intellect. A good story will expand your imagination. A good movie will inspire your artistic motion angle.


Books like Playboy? Porno movies? (Sorry, i couldn't resist the opportunity there. Laughing )

Anyway, I'm not sure what "good" means to you.

Quote:
A good pleasure destroys time of your life. It is nothing but wasteful primitive illusion that does nothing at all to you -- you might as well artificially impose it on yourself if that's what you seek. -- like how they did with rats and electrodes, where they were provided with a button to give instant pleasure. -- they did so until they starved to death. Very enlightened goal in life. (imagine what they could have done to improve themselves and their "souls", since we're speaking about religion, had they cherised their time properly)


To give the rats credit, they weren't going to last long irregardlessly, so they enjoyed their time. For all we know, these rats could've been mentally retarted. Moreover, rats don't have the congnitive ability (AFAIK) to attribute not starving yourself to death to more time to indulge in pleasures. I love rat experiments, because every unique animal on the earth can so easily be compared to them, and we know so much about them and how much we're like them, despite seemingly knowing more about them than we know about ourselves.

Quote:
You may say that what else there is to life, but it is exactly this wasteful thinking that, in my humble opinion, a possible god doesn't want, which is why he put us a limited time on Earth, not permanent, to filter out people who "expand" in THEMSELVES (and their capacities) from those who stagnate and prefer their pleasures as ultimate goal.


Conversely, he could also put people on a limited timer to figure out how many humans can actually figure out that they can't really improve themselves in such a short period of time.

Quote:
He doesn't want "dirty" people from Earth into Heaven -- by 'dirty' I mean people who see nothing more apart from their pleasures on Earth. Heaven is supposed to be a much better place with much higher 'dimensions'... it's obvious those who think that life is fulfilled by pleasure and they should not continually expand something (be it imagination, inspirations, whatever) to improve and improve yourself are not suited for "the next big thing", so they are not suited for Heaven either, whatever heaven might be.


That's like saying that Adam and Eve did the right thing when eating of the apple of the tree of knowledge. In this case, they were to sit there and loyally be happy with the pleasures God gave them and they would never die, lest they ate of that particular tree (eating from it is sin, and the price for sin is death, yadda yadda yadda). Eve listened to ol' Lucifer when he said that if she ate of the tree, she would improve herself (know right from wrong, become as great as God, etc).

Quote:
Think how would robots who have no notion of pleasure view us "retarded monkeys" as, when we go around them and beg them for pleasure like slaves... and then see us wastefully doing nothing but feeling good about our illusions. It's like we are willing slaves to them. Think of it from an outsider point of view, what good does taking drugs or putting electrodes to simulate the ultimate pleasure do apart from wasting energy for nothing since you will NOT improve yourself... in fact you will only need more next time to compensate!


In and of itself, it is a reason to improve. If you need more, you will improve yourself in attempt to get more. Fortunately for mankind, there are built in systems for mankind to realize that the pleasure is only artificial. Upon realizing that, the pleasure pretty much goes away ("understanding ruins the fun" so to speak). Sure the physical stimulus is there, but many become rather annoyed at the artificial gain and move on to seek other pleasures which they do not feel artificial.
Post 21 Dec 2009, 11:03
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
kohlrak wrote:
If that child prefers crawling despite the already existant motivation, there's not much you can do, and the child is indeed far. If evolution is true, and if this is the way for us to evolve, then nature will provide a more suitable means.
natural selection is only one stage of evolution, my view of evolution is far more philosophical and broad.

kohlrak wrote:
I'm not saying they are the same thing. I'm saying that they are caused by those things. If I pump someone full of morphine, I can be pretty sure they will be happy.

Anyway, to go with your example. Drugs always need a higher dosage or a replacement to cause pleasure again. Let's put it this way, discovering that combining 2 groups of 2 of the same item tends to result in 1 group with 4 of the same item, usually, does not constantly make people happy. Now that you have solved that puzzle, you must come up with another one. You must replace that puzzle with a more difficult puzzle.
Except that in the puzzle scenario you would improve your mental abilities, in the pleasure case, you would only waste time and energy and yourself. In fact you would become worse since you will require more amounts of the given things that gives you pleasure... so it's like downgrading yourself!

kohlrak wrote:
In other words, you look at a bunch of people and what they say and are assuming. You're assuming from second hand experience, which, no offense, is like making a claim on what it's like to see a rainbow if you've been blind from birth.
What's false about my statements, that it's a waste of energy, ?

If you want to do still have pleasure as ultimate goal then use an artificial means like electrodes on your brain, wastes much less energy and you won't pollute the world as much for a fruitless goal such as that. You don't add anything to the world with pleasure, don't improve yourself, but actually make matters worse (both in you and the energy and time you waste). What is false in what I said?

It is like living an illusion. The Matrix at least got a good idea: put the people who prefer the illusion to some use -- harvesting them while giving them the illusion that they are happy. That's actually a good thing, it's win-win situation.

kohlrak wrote:
Do me a favor and elaborate on what all those "it"s are, along with whatever "the thing how i perceive it" is. No offense, but I have no clue what you're saying.
See above -- it's a simple observation, it doesn't need philosophy or much science to know that energy, time and people themselves are wasted. Smile

kohlrak wrote:
Anyway, I'm not sure what "good" means to you.
When you have a limited time to do something, and you arrive at the end, and you look at yourself, what are you going to notice, what you have done, what you have improved, what you have affected... not how much pleasure you had in your life -- it's only in moments like that that you realize it was a waste and an illusion in the past.

kohlrak wrote:
To give the rats credit, they weren't going to last long irregardlessly, so they enjoyed their time. For all we know, these rats could've been mentally retarted. Moreover, rats don't have the congnitive ability (AFAIK) to attribute not starving yourself to death to more time to indulge in pleasures. I love rat experiments, because every unique animal on the earth can so easily be compared to them, and we know so much about them and how much we're like them, despite seemingly knowing more about them than we know about ourselves.
See above why "they enjoyed themselves" is similar to being tricked by a temporary illusion and, to make matters worse, justifying it (I mean, we all are tricked by some temporary illusion, but the thing is whether we want it or not).

Suffice to say you won't last in Heaven or Hell (eternal) if you are seduced by temporary illusions!

kohlrak wrote:
Conversely, he could also put people on a limited timer to figure out how many humans can actually figure out that they can't really improve themselves in such a short period of time.
but they do, that's why they have to repent. If he can forgive them in such a short time surely he must expect them to 'change' or 'improve' in such a short time.

kohlrak wrote:
That's like saying that Adam and Eve did the right thing when eating of the apple of the tree of knowledge. In this case, they were to sit there and loyally be happy with the pleasures God gave them and they would never die, lest they ate of that particular tree (eating from it is sin, and the price for sin is death, yadda yadda yadda). Eve listened to ol' Lucifer when he said that if she ate of the tree, she would improve herself (know right from wrong, become as great as God, etc).
exactly, that's what humans wanted, it's why he banished them on Earth from paradise or whatever. They made a choice: that they prefer knowledge. Well then they get a limited time with it and to do it the right way (not evil) so they don't end up in Hell (which shows they use such knowledge for evil).

kohlrak wrote:
In and of itself, it is a reason to improve. If you need more, you will improve yourself in attempt to get more. Fortunately for mankind, there are built in systems for mankind to realize that the pleasure is only artificial. Upon realizing that, the pleasure pretty much goes away ("understanding ruins the fun" so to speak). Sure the physical stimulus is there, but many become rather annoyed at the artificial gain and move on to seek other pleasures which they do not feel artificial.
Well said. Understanding doesn't ruin the fun, it dispels illusions. How is that a bad thing? Understanding is always one of the highest goals Confused

Ignorance is NOT bliss, ignorance is being stupid by choice, which is much worse than being stupid unwillingly. Worst possible evolution suggestion if I ever heard one. Razz

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Post 21 Dec 2009, 17:28
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
or, to put it into programming perspective, pleasure would be like writing an instruction and then removing the code. Tomorrow writing that line again, deleting it again, and so forth.

Instead of expanding upon yourself so that a new day passes and you've changed something, you've added something, you've done something, you expanded yourself or others or something in the stuff around you... something. (instead of, you know, wasting energy for nothing)

Is it so "strange" that I prefer the latter in all activities I do? or that I find the second approach much more evolved and rational? Wink

Because if we were to follow the former in every activity, we would be in a terrible situation... but pleasure is too seductive for some humans, they can't see past the illusion and think it's different. The Matrix was like an 'easy-to-use' product that gave use to pleasure wasteful people AND putting them to some use...

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Post 21 Dec 2009, 18:10
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Except that in the puzzle scenario you would improve your mental abilities, in the pleasure case, you would only waste time and energy and yourself. In fact you would become worse since you will require more amounts of the given things that gives you pleasure... so it's like downgrading yourself!


Are we really improving? Ultimately, for the sake of making such happiness easy, people would avoid teaching each other things so novel ideas could slowly be introduced at a determined rate.

Quote:
What's false about my statements, that it's a waste of energy, ?


You said your experience is that of an outsider. You don't understand christianty or any religion as a member of that religion, but by relying on others to experience and learn rules and beliefs for you.

Quote:
If you want to do still have pleasure as ultimate goal then use an artificial means like electrodes on your brain, wastes much less energy and you won't pollute the world as much for a fruitless goal such as that. You don't add anything to the world with pleasure, don't improve yourself, but actually make matters worse (both in you and the energy and time you waste). What is false in what I said?


I did not say that was false. My statement is that you are not understanding first hand, and therefore you are experiencing a rainbow as if you were blind all your life listening to others explain it. You don't know religion. Do me a favor, drink soda before you tell me what it tastes like.

Quote:
It is like living an illusion. The Matrix at least got a good idea: put the people who prefer the illusion to some use -- harvesting them while giving them the illusion that they are happy. That's actually a good thing, it's win-win situation.


Elaborate, I'm not familiar with the movie. Razz

Quote:
See above -- it's a simple observation, it doesn't need philosophy or much science to know that energy, time and people themselves are wasted. Smile


I won't both respoding to comments i don't understand. Razz

Quote:
When you have a limited time to do something, and you arrive at the end, and you look at yourself, what are you going to notice, what you have done, what you have improved, what you have affected... not how much pleasure you had in your life -- it's only in moments like that that you realize it was a waste and an illusion in the past.


In which case, the book, story, and movie are only good for the writer. The movies, books, and stories can only do good if the ones who enjoy them actually use the knowledge provided by them. However, this is seldom the case, pleasure or not.

Quote:
See above why "they enjoyed themselves" is similar to being tricked by a temporary illusion and, to make matters worse, justifying it (I mean, we all are tricked by some temporary illusion, but the thing is whether we want it or not).


I'm seeing what's above, but I don't see where you justify your arguments when it would require that humans be no smarter or capable than rats.

Quote:
Suffice to say you won't last in Heaven or Hell (eternal) if you are seduced by temporary illusions!


Supposedly, in either place you aren't ment to worry about lasting. Razz

Quote:
but they do, that's why they have to repent. If he can forgive them in such a short time surely he must expect them to 'change' or 'improve' in such a short time.


I'm suggesting that humans typically don't make major improvements by themselves in the short lifespan of humanity. If improvement is all that mattered, then humans wouldn't need forgiveness so long as they inevitably improve.

Quote:
exactly, that's what humans wanted, it's why he banished them on Earth from paradise or whatever. They made a choice: that they prefer knowledge. Well then they get a limited time with it and to do it the right way (not evil) so they don't end up in Hell (which shows they use such knowledge for evil).


He could've created man in heaven, but he didn't. Man was created in the garden of Eden, with the assumption that man wouldn't be stupid enough to seek power, but blindly rely on the lord. It's not like there was some big rat test to find out which thing made humans sin the easiest. The only command was to not eat of the tree.

Quote:
Well said. Understanding doesn't ruin the fun, it dispels illusions. How is that a bad thing? Understanding is always one of the highest goals


My point being, that you inevitably loose all happiness when understanding is acquired. I'm suggesting that once you understand why you are happy from knowledge, you will no longer seek it, because it will no longer be able to make you happy.

Quote:
Ignorance is NOT bliss, ignorance is being stupid by choice, which is much worse than being stupid unwillingly. Worst possible evolution suggestion if I ever heard one.


Ignorance is not bliss because of stupidity by choice? Bliss is bliss regardless of reason. Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't believe improvement is bad, however I am suggesting that pleasure is necessary for desire to improvement, especially in a society as selfish as the one existant today. If people could not experience pleasure, they would do whatever it takes to avoid yet the opposite. Individuals, for the most part, couldn't care less if humanity continues to exist. Individuals only exist for personal gains, which has pretty much been proven by just about every communist government out there. Communist leaders themselves have sought personal gains. The facist Hitler looked for his own gain pretending it was for the better good of Germany. When time came for him to be the last standing for his country, they found him dead for he killed himself.

Quote:
or, to put it into programming perspective, pleasure would be like writing an instruction and then removing the code. Tomorrow writing that line again, deleting it again, and so forth.


Not so. Pleasure would be taking that code, removing it, and adding it again with one extra instruction.

Quote:
Instead of expanding upon yourself so that a new day passes and you've changed something, you've added something, you've done something, you expanded yourself or others or something in the stuff around you... something. (instead of, you know, wasting energy for nothing)


You speak as if the motivation of pleasure causes no changes aside from wasting energy. As if humanity willingly provides pleasure to everyone so that they do not have to improve themselves. This is surely not the case.

Quote:
Is it so "strange" that I prefer the latter in all activities I do? or that I find the second approach much more evolved and rational?


Hardly. I'm suggesting that you are under the illusion that the happiness achieved by "improvement" isn't a form of pleasure. Would you believe that it's what drug addicts say? They claim to enter a higher plane or this or that. They also claim that the feeling is authentic, unlike other drugs or such. They strive to give this drug exclusive attention, despite the impossibility of ever obtaining their goal.

Quote:
Because if we were to follow the former in every activity, we would be in a terrible situation... but pleasure is too seductive for some humans, they can't see past the illusion and think it's different. The Matrix was like an 'easy-to-use' product that gave use to pleasure wasteful people AND putting them to some use...


Alas, there is a matrix programmed for people to become self-righteous, so that the matrix has exclusive control over pleasures for the purpose of controlling people into following the matrix's will, so that the matrix's pleasures are sought after. Often illusion of exclusive power (righteousness, law, physical power, etc), riches, abilities, etc are pretty well sought after by such people. Ah, the matrix is the leaders of "academic fields" and politicians, replacing the matrix of old.
Post 21 Dec 2009, 21:42
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