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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
Something we already knew, but here is some quantitative data:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-10370026-264.html
Post 19 Oct 2009, 15:39
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
I'm more and more glad I got ECC RAM modules and a motherboard with a chipset that supports it. Smile

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Post 19 Oct 2009, 16:57
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r22



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r22
RAM is such a shady business model. The whole RAM industry would be consolidated if mobo's started embedding it during manufacturing.

RAM technology never has large advancements, we're always spoon fed incremental improvements that barely show in benchmarks (i.e. DDR2 to DDR3).

There's the whole murky area of GDDR (graphics RAM) vs DDR. GPUs can use GDDR5 but CPUs are stuck with DDR3? The original "excuse" for this was pricing, but now they are selling $200 video cards with 1GB of DDR5.

The whole RAM industry is a price-fixing, zero innovation, scam!

MOV EAX, [RANT]
RET 0
Post 19 Oct 2009, 16:59
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
hmm what if your RAM module fails like mine did on my previous rig?
Replace the whole motherboard? Rolling Eyes
Post 19 Oct 2009, 17:03
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r22



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r22
Yes, you would RMA your mother board because it was faulty. If it's past the warranty period you'd replace the whole component.

The whole point here is the RAM industry creates a shoddy product. A chip with zero moving parts that takes a standard voltage should not be failing.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 17:21
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there's no difference. Wink

I've had video cards, RAM, PSUs, and motherboards fail on me before.

And I'm not talking about the cost, even though if it's after warranty it will cost me a lot compared to cheap RAM, I'm talking about the PITA to uninstall all the components from the computer and put them back in.

If a RAM stick fails, you know what I do? Get it out and put another one in. Takes a few seconds. Razz

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Post 19 Oct 2009, 18:19
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
It is not necessarily the fault of the RAM that makes it fail. Soft errors have many causes. To name a few: PSU fluctuations, cosmic rays, radioactive decay from the packaging, poorly designed mobo track paths, timing errors from high clocking speeds, bad soldering joints, etc. etc. etc.

The point is: Shit happens, and you just gotta deal with it. No point blaming everyone else, they can't make it perfect. Nothing is perfect right? Borsuc has the right idea, use ECC, or something to mitigate the problem. Don't buy those cheaply designed mobos that route the data tracks badly. Don't buy the cheapest PSU that is just big enough. Don't buy cheap RAM that has low quality packaging. Don't buy the cheap module that has bad soldering joints. You only get what you pay for.

Putting RAM directly on the mobo is a bad idea. No chance to upgrade or swap. GDDR5 is not suited to general PC computing, it is optimised for graphics data handling. BTW: there is no conspiracy to keep everything slow. That just doesn't make sense.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 19:14
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r22



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r22
We don't need to replace/upgrade SRAM, cache in CPUs, the cache in hard drives, our BIOS flash.
Our graphics cards come with embedded RAM.

Why can't our CPUs and/or motherboards come with RAM?

RAM only fails because it is PROFITABLE for it to fail.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 19:18
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
r22 wrote:
Why can't our CPUs and/or motherboards come with RAM?
Flexibility.

Why don't mobos come with CPUs soldered in? Why don't the mobos come with a graphics card (not the crappy VGA thing, a GPU thing) soldered in? Why don't mobos come with HDDs soldered in? Why aren't the mouse and keyboard hardwired in? Why isn't the PSU part of the mobo?

Flexibility.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 19:26
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r22



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r22
*** Off-topic note ***

Chiefmax power supplies, 680W for $29.99 are probably the cheapest around. I've used them in two builds that have been running over ten years (combined) and have never had a problem. If you overlook the fact that the PSU sounds like a WWI biplane they are cheap and work well. My next build will likely use their new 750W model with a "supposedly" quieter design.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I always buy the cheapest parts for my personal builds and excluding an MSI micro-atx mobo that couldn't boot IDE I haven't been burned.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 19:31
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r22



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r22
revolution wrote:
r22 wrote:
Why can't our CPUs and/or motherboards come with RAM?
Flexibility.

Why don't mobos come with CPUs soldered in? Why don't the mobos come with a graphics card (not the crappy VGA thing, a GPU thing) soldered in? Why don't mobos come with HDDs soldered in? Why aren't the mouse and keyboard hardwired in? Why isn't the PSU part of the mobo?

Flexibility.

Would this be an example of Slippery Slope or Straw Man? I'd say a little of each :D

Motherboards have been coming with integrated GPU for a while now. The AMD/ATI and NVIDIA solutions are competitive.

I'm saying RAM should NOT be a separate component like CPU or GPU or PSU or KB or Mouse or HDD. RAM should be a FEATURE like CPU cache, HDD cache, GPU RAM.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 19:38
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
When I'm buying a mobo, I only look at northbridge & southbridge specs, I don't want even more integrated stuff. I want flexibility. A person may want motherboard A with 2GB, I may want the same mobo with 4GB RAM. Even worse if the CPU is integrated in the mobo, which would be the next step obviously.

And I've had nothing but trouble with cheap PSUs. Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean the chance of error isn't there. This is called the "Positive bias" I think.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 20:36
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


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LocoDelAssembly
r22, do your builds actually use half that wattage at least?

I used to have a 520W PSU here that costed more or less the price you say but funny enough, not even summing the power of all the voltages specified in the label reached that power so it was a double lie. The PSU I have now is a 420W one that costed me around US$ 90, super quiet, certified, and with a label showing how the power is distributed.

revolution, not sure if currently available but PC Chips had some motherboards that came with soldered Athlons. My cousin has one.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 20:39
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
PSUs have AC/DC conversion, which means some efficiency loss. 80%+ efficiency are considered good and "green", or "not cheap quality". Obviously, if only 50% of the power gets converted (50% efficiency means bad, and unrealistically poor quality Very Happy) at a given load (let's say the max advertised), then the amount of power it can carry is half than what it says on the tin.

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Post 19 Oct 2009, 20:41
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


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LocoDelAssembly
Borsuc, no, it is supposed they advertise the OUTPUT power, that means that if my current PSU has a 50% efficiency, then it sucks 840W at full load.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 20:45
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
i imagine the future is like

a rack of memory
a rack of processor
a rack of hard disk
a rack of motherboard
a rack of power supply

then all of them connected through light speed cable or infrared or etc near lightspeed medium.

and all those racks feature something like "network switch", with lots of port and you can extend them if you need more.

revolution wrote:
r22 wrote:
Why can't our CPUs and/or motherboards come with RAM?
Flexibility.

Why don't mobos come with CPUs soldered in? Why don't the mobos come with a graphics card (not the crappy VGA thing, a GPU thing) soldered in? Why don't mobos come with HDDs soldered in? Why aren't the mouse and keyboard hardwired in? Why isn't the PSU part of the mobo?

Flexibility.

i think it is more to no market demand yet.
but maybe it future, those above are possible.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 20:51
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r22



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r22
Borsuc wrote:
When I'm buying a mobo, I only look at northbridge & southbridge specs, I don't want even more integrated stuff. I want flexibility. A person may want motherboard A with 2GB, I may want the same mobo with 4GB RAM. Even worse if the CPU is integrated in the mobo, which would be the next step obviously.

And I've had nothing but trouble with cheap PSUs. Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean the chance of error isn't there. This is called the "Positive bias" I think.

I'm saying RAM should NOT be a separate component like CPU or GPU or PSU or KB or Mouse or HDD. RAM should be a FEATURE like CPU cache, HDD cache, GPU RAM.
You buy the product with the FEATURES you want.

Agreed, my experience with Chiefmax is nothing more than an anecdote. Looking for a review online will show that the PSU died on the first test.

@Loco - 680W PSU, 2Ghz AMD X2 3800+ (old 90W), 2GB RAM, 1 10K RMP HDD, 1 7.2kRPM HDD, 1 ATI Radeon 1950XT. I'd put it at 350W at load. So yes about half the wattage as the PSU is stated for.
Post 19 Oct 2009, 20:58
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
r22 wrote:
I'm saying RAM should NOT be a separate component like CPU or GPU or PSU or KB or Mouse or HDD. RAM should be a FEATURE like CPU cache, HDD cache, GPU RAM.
You buy the product with the FEATURES you want.
Why are you repeating yourself when I already told you why that is a bad thing? I would very much prefer to make my own configuration than to choose from a limited supply of hard-wired features. That's what revolution said with flexibility.

For example of why it's bad, I may like a specific motherboard but then look and say "oh shit, it has only 2GB RAM on it" and look for something else. The point being: it's much more hard to match MORE features than to match LESS features. If I only need a mobo for being a mobo, and then I am free to choose the RAM I want with that mobo, not "choose a different mobo", the customization offered is greatly improved. What's so hard to get?

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Post 19 Oct 2009, 21:02
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Considering google chrome's cartoon, i'm not entirely surprised they'd propose that RAM is unreliable. It's easy to blame someone else for the problems with their algorithms.

As for the instability of parts, they don't last because of capacitor plague. At least, i assume that's what fails in ram save melting it.

As for choice of features, the argument defers on whether you like capitalism or if you trust others to choose the best parts for you. Let the mobo makers choose for you and they'll get bribed into a few more monopolies like those of which we already complain like having only intel or amd to choose from. It's like DELL. Like their overpriced offers? No, you build your own.
Post 20 Oct 2009, 00:06
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


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LocoDelAssembly
Quote:

Considering google chrome's cartoon, i'm not entirely surprised they'd propose that RAM is unreliable. It's easy to blame someone else for the problems with their algorithms.
ECC memory does generate an interrupt when an uncorrectable error occurs and it is ultra likely they measured that event than just the number of times their software randomly crash (which is very likely them where not taken into account). The software cannot control the ECC codes nor select whether a single memory access will be checked or not.

I don't know how the know the number of correctable errors though, I suppose the memory chipset has some counters for that.

A computer full of (genuine) Japanese capacitors will not last if the PSU is plain shit neither. I'm not sure what are you saying about the ram, could you rephrase it?
Post 20 Oct 2009, 00:25
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