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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Lack of god then too? Remember, it works both ways... =p
Post 10 Oct 2009, 09:12
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
kohlrak wrote:
Lack of god then too? Remember, it works both ways... =p
No, it doesn't work both ways. Do you believe in pink unicorns?
Post 10 Oct 2009, 09:14
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
No, it doesn't work both ways.


How doesn't it? Both are beliefs, both of which, i'm sure, started long before you were alive. So what was made up? God or the lack of god? I could push it further to say things that we use are also beliefs and faiths. Unless we have accurate documentation (and even then we'd have to have a degree of faith of accuracy) of what was original and what was "invented"/"made up," we have to take everything on faith. It's like those people who believe that this is all one big dream and eventually we'll wake up from this horrible nightmare and everything'll make sense. In the end, everything you believe is founded from a certain degree of faith.

Quote:
Do you believe in pink unicorns?


Not really, but what's to say they don't exist? Perhaps they are greater than us and hide from our perception. Perhaps they're so far away that we cannot see them. (another planet perhaps?)
Post 10 Oct 2009, 09:20
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revolution
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revolution
You can't believe in a lack of something. That is not logical. Like the pink unicorns you say might exist. Well sure I suppose they might somewhere, but there are a bajillion other things that might exist somewhere also. The whole argument is pointless and gets everyone nowhere. If someone says something exists then they should be prepared to prove it. If I say pink unicorns exist and then require everyone else just to believe me on faith then what is to stop everyone else coming up with their own patent nonsense and expect others to believe on it faith? It quickly gets out of hand, a bajillion things being believed in, all with absolutely zero evidence. Hehe, if I was more charismatic perhaps I could start the pink unicorn religion where everyone "just knows" that they exist, if you have enough faith that is. There is no sense in that. Don't fill the brain with nonsense when real things are there to be discovered.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 09:32
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
You can't believe in a lack of something. That is not logical. Like the pink unicorns you say might exist. Well sure I suppose they might somewhere, but there are a bajillion other things that might exist somewhere also. The whole argument is pointless and gets everyone nowhere.


My very point indeed that it's pointless to argue that something doesn't exist, but it's also pointless to argue that something does exist unless you're better than it.

Quote:
If someone says something exists then they should be prepared to prove it.


Do you exist?

Quote:
If I say pink unicorns exist and then require everyone else just to believe me on faith then what is to stop everyone else coming up with their own patent nonsense and expect others to believe on it faith? It quickly gets out of hand, a bajillion things being believed in, all with absolutely zero evidence. Hehe, if I was more charismatic perhaps I could start the pink unicorn religion where everyone "just knows" that they exist, if you have enough faith that is. There is no sense in that. Don't fill the brain with nonsense when real things are there to be discovered.


Once again, you are assuming that certain things are not real. Surely, as I have said, things which do not want to be discovered won't be, but that doesn't mean they do not exist. I'm sure you could form such a fandom of people who believe in pink unicorns, as that honestly is not the most rediculous of things which i've often been told exist, even on these very boards.

And i feel so ignorant for waiting until now to pick on this very statement below:

Quote:
If you can't prove something either way then ignore it. It was probably just someone making it up as a joke.


Firstly, probability is a measurement of faith. Secondly, you're therefore telling me to believe in a faith of yours, disregarding my own, or am i misunderstanding you?

Self correction:

Probability is NOT a measurement of faith. It is a measurement based on ideas which are faithfully believed for the purpose of making yet another decision of faith.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 09:40
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revolution
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revolution
Your question about "Do you exist?" is not a logical response to my text. I never said I do exist so I don't have to prove it.

I am not assuming that certain things are not real. And you do misunderstand, or I write badly, sorry about that. I am saying that assuming things do exist, on faith, is unnecessary and time wasting. I am saying that, until further evidence is forthcoming, it is pointless to simply believe what people say, on faith, for the simple reason that people can say all sorts of nonsense.

I don't how you come to the conclusion that "probability is a measurement of faith". I have never seen that before. Did you make it up yourself? The probability of a fair dice being thrown randomly and coming up 2 is 1 in 6. Is that faith? Or just simple mathematics?

I never asked you, or anyone, to believe in "my faith". Perhaps you mistake my desire for proof of something as some sort of "faith" in the non-existence of that thing? If so, then I hope you can see the difference. Lack of desire to follow a persons faith in something is not another faith in itself.

[edit] Okay, the probability thing was a typo. I acknowledge your correction.


Last edited by revolution on 10 Oct 2009, 10:03; edited 1 time in total
Post 10 Oct 2009, 09:52
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
Your question about "Do you exist?" is not a logical response to my text. I never said I do exist so I don't have to prove it.


Now we're getting silly... Cool

Quote:
I am not assuming that certain things are not real. And you do misunderstand, or I write badly, sorry about that. I am saying that assuming things do exist, on faith, is unnecessary and time wasting. I am saying that, until further evidence is forthcoming, it is pointless to simply believe what people say, on faith, for the simple reason that people can say all sorts of nonsense.


Have faith in me when i say this (Wink), there are ALOT of things in which you have to have faith in to believe. From the earliest stages you gain faith in your senses, and then you have faith when people told you that you can trust science. You have faith that your beliefs are true, no? You have faith that every time you push that post button that your message will eventually be seen by someone else's eyes, right? There seems to be no end in your faith, no?

Quote:
I don't how you come to the conclusion that "probability is a measurement of faith". I have never seen that before. Did you make it up yourself? The probability of a fair dice being thrown randomly and coming up 2 is 1 in 6. Is that faith? Or just simple mathematics?


Is it not faith that 1+1=2? Why, i think 1+1=10. Wink Truth is, you're still, obviously, showing faith in mathematics when you use the word. Therefore, since anything based on faith logically becomes a matter of faith, it is faith?

Quote:
I never asked you, or anyone, to believe in "my faith". Perhaps you mistake my desire for proof of something as some sort of "faith" in the non-existence of that thing? If so, then I hope you can see the difference. Lack of desire to follow a persons faith in something is not another faith in itself.


Ah, i guess then that i have misunderstood you. Pardon me. Embarassed

Though i must ask a silly question again. Does reality and truth care if you have proof? Just a question to munch on for a while.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 10:03
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revolution
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revolution
Do a search for "Principia Mathematica" [edited spelling, thanks MHajduk] (IIRC, can't remember the exact spelling ). It is a superb work that proves arithmetic (and some other things) in mathematics. No need for faith when we have proof.

I am not saying I live in a world where I have no faith in anything. And many of the "faiths" you list above I do follow. I choose to follow them to make my life more convenient. No argument there. I have built up a sufficient proof base in my mind to allow me to believe in my senses etc. sure. But when someone else tells me "<something> is true, just have faith" then I have no basis of personal experience to justify this extra faith. If they can't prove it to me then what reason do I have for believing them? I am sure if I wanted to believe enough then I could, the human mind can be taught to believe many things, true or false.


Last edited by revolution on 10 Oct 2009, 10:31; edited 2 times in total
Post 10 Oct 2009, 10:12
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MHajduk



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MHajduk
revolution wrote:
Do a search for "principa mathematica" (IIRC, can't remember the exact spelling).
Principia_Mathematica by Bertrand Russell and Alfred North Whitehead. Smile
Post 10 Oct 2009, 10:24
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
Do a search for "principa mathematica" (IIRC, can't remember the exact spelling). It is a superb work that proves arithmetic (and some other things) in mathematics. No need for faith when we have proof.


Mustn't we still have faith in the principles which are used to prove it? Ultimately, everything we have learned through our senses is based on faith because we have faith in our senses. Moreover, math is yet man made and restricted by our own flaws and is flawed where our logic is, since it is based on our logic.

Quote:
I am not saying I live in a world where I have no faith in anything. And many of the "faiths" you list above I do follow. I choose to follow them to make my life more convenient. No argument there. I have built up a sufficient proof base in my mind to allow me to believe in my sense etc. sure. But when someone else tells me "<something> is true, just have faith" then I have no basis of personal experience to justify this extra faith.


And really, this is ultimately what divides us. See, i have experienced occurances that, to me, would be unreasonable without including the concept of external factors (mostly due to the probability of the occurances). To have faith in this theory is more convenient to me than relying on guessing. It's not that i have not faith in science (for, under strict deffinition of science, it's from where all faith is derived), so much as i have very little faith in people to ever explain what we must ultimately know, for i believe they are too imperfect to accomplish this.

Quote:
If they can't prove it to me then what reason do I have for believing them? I am sure if I wanted to believe enough then I could, the human mind can be taught to believe many things, true or false.


Which is unfortunate, for many things which do not deserve faith are getting it... Especially the crooked... My main problem is with those who have taken a self-appointed position of authority over others simply because of a particular faith. This comes from someone selfishly establishing themselves as some sort of authority (often a delusion, fortunately), and declaring a belief other than their own to be unfit for a particular reason. I find it particularly offensive to my own personal intellegence when it is suggested that because some one who believed similar things to me, that my faith is just as dangerous as theirs. I've seen many things on the fasm forums where this very thing has happened. I expect not to be judged for mistakes of other so-called christians in the name of christanity, just as i judge not an atheist for the mistakes of someone such as Stalin... Unfortunately, the following comments left me in a predicament of becomming defensive toward you:

Quote:
Faith, noun - see self delusion.
God, noun - see mythical concepts.
Religion, noun - see group delusion.


I honestly could not tell if you were joking or if you were as others here who choose to do the things i've mentioned above.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 10:47
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revolution
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revolution
But faith is self delusion. It is not a dig at anyone. Faith requires internal beliefs without proof. I have already freely admitted above to my self delusions with respect to having faith in my senses. It is not a weakness, it is what makes all of us human and allows us to progress within the world.

Religion is group delusion. Once again nothing sinister about that. It is a group of like minded people coming together to share their faith (i.e. to share their self delusion). Perfectly natural for a social species like humans.

God is a mythical concept. If someone can show proof of god then it moves from the mythical concepts category into the real things category.

But each of those definitions is separate of the others. One should not try to arbitrarily merge all three together to make it seem like something it is not.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 11:02
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Well, you must admit that "delusion" has negative connotations. So does "mythical."
Post 10 Oct 2009, 11:06
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revolution
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revolution
A snippet from revolution's dictionary:

Delusion, noun - the ability of the mind to believe whatever it wants to.

And I really do see it in my everyday life. People CAN, and do, believe all sorts of silly stuff simply because they want to, not because of proof (superstitions, luck, broken mirrors etc.). I don't see it as either negative or positive, just honest. If someone tries to tell me that they have never deluded themselves then I would find it very hard to accept. From what I see in people (including myself) delusion is a fact of our lives. Sometimes people try to hide it, or pretend it doesn't happen, but I think that is just another form of delusion. Seems a bit tautological I suppose but that is what I think.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 11:21
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Ah, well that does clarify things much, much better.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 11:23
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
revolution wrote:
If you can't prove something either way then ignore it. It was probably just someone making it up as a joke.
Isn't that a belief? You can't prove that "something", which is that it's a joke.
So why did you say it?


Belief is extremely necessary -- and I'm not talking about religious belief. When was the last time you analyzed the water you drank for proof it isn't contaminated? Or done your OWN research instead of believing in some news source or published article?

Why do you believe that living and enjoying life is good? Any proof?
So why do you preach it then? Razz

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Post 10 Oct 2009, 15:23
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revolution
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revolution
Borsuc wrote:
revolution wrote:
If you can't prove something either way then ignore it. It was probably just someone making it up as a joke.
Isn't that a belief? You can't prove that "something", which is that it's a joke.
So why did you say it?
I'm not asking you to accept my advice. You are free to ignore my advice if you desire. But I am happy to give my opinion, in the hope it may help someone.
Borsuc wrote:
Belief is extremely necessary -- and I'm not talking about religious belief. When was the last time you analyzed the water you drank for proof it isn't contaminated? Or done your OWN research instead of believing in some news source or published article?
Yes indeed, Belief is important, I already said that in this thread somewhere up there.
Borsuc wrote:
Why do you believe that living and enjoying life is good? Any proof?
So why do you preach it then? Razz
No, I have no proof. You are free to ignore my statements. But if you feel it may help you in some way then I offer my advice for free. It is entirely possible that I have merely deluded myself in believing that enjoyment is a good thing. Wink
Post 10 Oct 2009, 15:36
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
My point wasn't that I should ignore it or not -- I don't mind your advice.
My point was to show you, you have beliefs Wink

Now think: for the same reason you have beliefs, other people have in different things. Not hard to "understand" that right? Wink

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Post 10 Oct 2009, 15:39
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revolution
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revolution
Borsuc: Yes your point was made, but no one was arguing that point.

The scale of belief is different. Belief in water quality is incrementally closer to proof each time we drink it. Belief in pink unicorns is never proven no matter how hard we have looked. You can't just indiscriminately believe in everything people tell you, you have to be selective based upon plausible criteria.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 15:45
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
revolution wrote:
Belief in water quality is incrementally closer to proof each time we drink it.
Actually that's a statistical belief, and a logical fallacy. Because "proof" has nothing to do with statistics, it's not about the quantity. Wink

revolution wrote:
Belief in pink unicorns is never proven no matter how hard we have looked. You can't just indiscriminately believe in everything people tell you, you have to be selective based upon plausible criteria.
I'm not saying what others should believe or not -- I'm saying that people should understand why others have beliefs, because everyone has, just different.

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Post 10 Oct 2009, 16:53
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kohlrak



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kohlrak
Quote:
The scale of belief is different. Belief in water quality is incrementally closer to proof each time we drink it. Belief in pink unicorns is never proven no matter how hard we have looked. You can't just indiscriminately believe in everything people tell you, you have to be selective based upon plausible criteria.


Reminds me of something in a movie called "The Sixth Sense," where the mother was slowly poisoning her daughter. She didn't know that she was getting poisoned, so believed the food was safe, and therefore ate. We have many examples of similar (and real) incidents, especially in chemicals. Remember all the weight loss fads? Sometimes we have to make leaps of faith to avoid such things.
Post 10 Oct 2009, 21:11
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