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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
while relaxing in car today, i thought of this.


how we make decisions? ... of course, based on several factors, but if not, the most important factor would be our "memory which included our experiences".

but we couldn't choose what to remember, we don't have control also towards what we can forget.

so, it is not us (to be strictly speaking) who are making all our daily decisions, they are all fated.
Post 09 Jul 2009, 16:28
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2937
Location: vpcmipstrm
bitRAKE
We only see what we focus on. Many things direct our focus. Some are the crying baby in the same room, while others are the full moon in the sky. We can choose to leave the baby, or sleep through the night. Not that they will not exist, but we don't need to focus on them. The tides will still change.
Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3, 218–224 wrote:
Brutus:
There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.
Post 09 Jul 2009, 16:52
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rxantos



Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 41
rxantos
I do not know if fate exist or not. But I prefer to act as if it does not exist, that I do have choices in the world.

If faith exist, then all existence is just a farse. A movie made for the amusement of a being called God. Also, NO ONE could be at fault or have accomplish anything, just an staged illusion.

I refuse to accept that fate exist. I do believe in cause and effect, but never on fate,
Post 17 Jul 2009, 16:51
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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sleepsleep
i read a tibetan book (life and death) lately.
life is like lightning struck, here you are, then you gone.
and for tibetan, their life is to prepare for their death. they search for the key to understand death and accept it.

forget about fate or predetination, the "real" stuff is now. now is the moment, seize now.
maybe i could have plan, for next day, next month or next year, but nobody know, whether if i could survive tonite or not.

once i sleep, it just lucky i could get up tomolo. who knows right... nobody. and that is life.

and if we put a second thought, should we care if our life is fated or not, .. i mean, if yes, so wat, if not, so wat, we couldn't change anything.
then why not now, we just sit, enjoy, watching this nice blue sky and nite moon. Smile

enjoy.
Post 19 Jul 2009, 16:47
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vid
Verbosity in development


Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 7105
Location: Slovakia
vid
Quote:
and if we put a second thought, should we care if our life is fated or not, .. i mean, if yes, so wat, if not, so wat, we couldn't change anything. then why not now, we just sit, enjoy, watching this nice blue sky and nite moon


heh-heh, eventually you will arrive to Epicureanism...
Post 19 Jul 2009, 19:33
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asmcoder



Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 784
asmcoder
[content deleted]


Last edited by asmcoder on 14 Aug 2009, 14:48; edited 1 time in total
Post 19 Jul 2009, 20:39
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa
tom tobias
vid wrote:
heh-heh, eventually you will arrive to Epicureanism...
here's the link

Smile
Post 19 Jul 2009, 21:18
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1159
Azu
bitRAKE wrote:
We only see what we focus on. Many things direct our focus. Some are the crying baby in the same room, while others are the full moon in the sky. We can choose to leave the baby, or sleep through the night. Not that they will not exist, but we don't need to focus on them. The tides will still change.
Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3, 218–224 wrote:
Brutus:
There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.
Doesn't that just lead to the question of "why did you decide whether or not to focus on the baby"?



rxantos wrote:
I do not know if fate exist or not. But I prefer to act as if it does not exist, that I do have choices in the world.

If faith exist, then all existence is just a farse. A movie made for the amusement of a being called God. Also, NO ONE could be at fault or have accomplish anything, just an staged illusion.
If our actions are directed by cause and effect they are just a "farce" and "staged illusion"? Why?

rxantos wrote:
I refuse to accept that fate exist. I do believe in cause and effect, but never on fate,
Doesn't "fate" just mean "humans not being excluded from cause and effect"? Or are you talking about the superstitious use of the word E.G. "she was born while venus and mars were aligned at an 85 degree angle and because of that was fated to have problems with love"?
Post 19 Jul 2009, 22:37
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2937
Location: vpcmipstrm
bitRAKE
Azu wrote:
Doesn't that just lead to the question of "why did you decide whether or not to focus on the baby"?
Not necessarily. Infinite regression would always lead us back to the big bang - figuratively speaking. We either get consumed by unknowns or knowns, lol! Control does exist - we can maintain focus sufficient for the day. Or rather why do you choose to ignore the moon's relationship to the baby?

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Post 20 Jul 2009, 05:40
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1159
Azu
bitRAKE wrote:
Azu wrote:
Doesn't that just lead to the question of "why did you decide whether or not to focus on the baby"?
Not necessarily. Infinite regression would always lead us back to the big bang - figuratively speaking. We either get consumed by unknowns or knowns, lol! Control does exist - we can maintain focus
Why assume that nothing caused the big bang? Or even that there is some other, figurative, big bang that precursed everything?

All knowledge points to effects happening due to causes. Why should there be any exceptions to this? There might be some things that we don't understand the cause of yet, but that doesn't mean they were caused by nothing.



bitRAKE wrote:
sufficient for the day. Or rather why do you choose to ignore the moon's relationship to the baby?
Because the two headed Gentoo disproves it!
Post 20 Jul 2009, 05:59
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2937
Location: vpcmipstrm
bitRAKE
Azu wrote:
Why assume that nothing caused the big bang? Or even that there is some other, figurative, big bang that precursed everything?
Neither said nor implied. My intent is rather the idea of genesis - be it big bang or biblical or the birth, etc... Yes, there are actual traces leading to it (temporally, backward and forward). What more than academic revelation is gained from returning to the singularity of genesis? Only in hindsight does it appear to have any value. Yet, we cannot predict such a future state by definition (full of uncertainty).

The cause -> effect relationship has an implied focus.

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Post 20 Jul 2009, 08:38
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1159
Azu
bitRAKE wrote:
Azu wrote:
Why assume that nothing caused the big bang? Or even that there is some other, figurative, big bang that precursed everything?
Neither said nor implied. My intent is rather the idea of genesis - be it big bang or biblical or the birth, etc... Yes, there are actual traces leading to it (temporally, backward and forward). What more than academic revelation is gained from returning to the singularity of genesis? Only in hindsight does it appear to have any value. Yet, we cannot predict such a future state by definition (full of uncertainty).

The cause -> effect relationship has an implied focus.
Uncertainty meaning you fail to understand all of its cause(s), not meaning it has none.

From an individual's focus/point of view/whatever a lot of things can't be directly understood for sure, but that denotes a limitation of the individual not a lack of cause for the events.


Last edited by Azu on 20 Jul 2009, 08:51; edited 2 times in total
Post 20 Jul 2009, 08:43
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MHajduk



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6038
Location: Poland
MHajduk
sleepsleep wrote:
i read a tibetan book (life and death) lately.
life is like lightning struck, here you are, then you gone.
and for tibetan, their life is to prepare for their death. they search for the key to understand death and accept it.
sleepsleep, did you mean "Tibetan Book of the Dead" ("Bardo Thodol") here or something else? This is a really amazing text.


Last edited by MHajduk on 20 Jul 2009, 15:39; edited 1 time in total
Post 20 Jul 2009, 08:48
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2937
Location: vpcmipstrm
bitRAKE
Azu wrote:
bitRAKE wrote:
Azu wrote:
Why assume that nothing caused the big bang? Or even that there is some other, figurative, big bang that precursed everything?
Neither said nor implied. My intent is rather the idea of genesis - be it big bang or biblical or the birth, etc... Yes, there are actual traces leading to it (temporally, backward and forward). What more than academic revelation is gained from returning to the singularity of genesis? Only in hindsight does it appear to have any value. Yet, we cannot predict such a future state by definition (full of uncertainty).

The cause -> effect relationship has an implied focus.
Uncertainty meaning you fail to understand all of its cause(s), not meaning it has none.

From an individual's focus/point of view/whatever a lot of things can't be directly understood for sure, but that denotes a limitation of the individual not a lack of cause for the events.
It does appear to be a limitation of computability. Would you entertain the idea of absolute uncertainty or infinite cause?

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Post 20 Jul 2009, 14:13
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
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Borsuc
@Azu: you will need a computer at least as complex as the Universe itself, existing outside of it (for obvious reasons) to be able to predict it. In other words, a parallel Universe.

In other words, the universe is already computing its future. You can't "predict" everything with 100% certainty, because your brain isn't the universe. The universe itself computes its future, anything you do is limited since you are INSIDE the Universe and part of it.

Summary: fate is worthless. It may exist, but it is impossible to prove it, because we are not "outside" the Universe.

well we can get into philosophy then Razz

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Post 20 Jul 2009, 17:10
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1159
Azu
bitRAKE wrote:
Azu wrote:
bitRAKE wrote:
Azu wrote:
Why assume that nothing caused the big bang? Or even that there is some other, figurative, big bang that precursed everything?
Neither said nor implied. My intent is rather the idea of genesis - be it big bang or biblical or the birth, etc... Yes, there are actual traces leading to it (temporally, backward and forward). What more than academic revelation is gained from returning to the singularity of genesis? Only in hindsight does it appear to have any value. Yet, we cannot predict such a future state by definition (full of uncertainty).

The cause -> effect relationship has an implied focus.
Uncertainty meaning you fail to understand all of its cause(s), not meaning it has none.

From an individual's focus/point of view/whatever a lot of things can't be directly understood for sure, but that denotes a limitation of the individual not a lack of cause for the events.
It does appear to be a limitation of computability. Would you entertain the idea of absolute uncertainty or infinite cause?
Infinite cause.


Borsuc wrote:
@Azu: you will need a computer at least as complex as the Universe itself, existing outside of it (for obvious reasons) to be able to predict it. In other words, a parallel Universe.

In other words, the universe is already computing its future. You can't "predict" everything with 100% certainty, because your brain isn't the universe. The universe itself computes its future, anything you do is limited since you are INSIDE the Universe and part of it.

Summary: fate is worthless. It may exist, but it is impossible to prove it, because we are not "outside" the Universe.

well we can get into philosophy then Razz


Just because we don't have the ability to figure something out doesn't mean there is nothing to figure.

For example it might be virtually impossible to crack WHIRLPOOL hashes, but that doesn't mean there is no cause behind them, or even that they can't be figured out if you have enough algorithmic knowledge, processing power, and memory..
Post 20 Jul 2009, 20:30
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2937
Location: vpcmipstrm
bitRAKE
Azu wrote:
bitRAKE wrote:
Would you entertain the idea of absolute uncertainty or infinite cause?
Infinite cause.
Despite whatever positive connotation the later suggests to our human psyche, it is an abysmal state equivalent to absolute uncertainty.

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Post 20 Jul 2009, 23:50
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1159
Azu
bitRAKE wrote:
Azu wrote:
bitRAKE wrote:
Would you entertain the idea of absolute uncertainty or infinite cause?
Infinite cause.
Despite whatever positive connotation the later suggests to our human psyche, it is an abysmal state equivalent to absolute uncertainty.
I prefer fathomlessness over causelessness. Abyss over void.
Post 20 Jul 2009, 23:55
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
There is no void - not even in programming.
Just like there is no empty space.
Post 21 Jul 2009, 00:42
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Azu
Exactly, there must be cause behind everything.
Post 21 Jul 2009, 00:44
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