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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
they are here, and living in our community.

A govt-run shelter for the disabled has, instead, become their jail
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/5/nation/4260043&sec=nation

so, in reality, how we gonna solve such situation?

i always keep this question in my heart, why God created mental disabled people? and let them sort of suffer on earth. Confused
Post 05 Jul 2009, 01:53
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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bitRAKE
Part of me thinks the beauty of nature is that it can't produce a perfect machine. What kind of problem would that be? Imagine clothes that never wear out. Have you seen the plastic strewn across the land and sea?

The range of social deviation should be studied. Are we (d)evolving? How would we know it if we were? Are there environmental factors leading to the condition?
Post 05 Jul 2009, 04:56
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asmcoder



Joined: 02 Jun 2008
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asmcoder
[content deleted]


Last edited by asmcoder on 14 Aug 2009, 14:49; edited 1 time in total
Post 05 Jul 2009, 07:45
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
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ManOfSteel
sleepsleep wrote:
why God created mental disabled people?

Yeah, God, here we go again.
Some better questions for you: Why do we, humans, let all disabled people be born in the first place? Why are we so reckless when it comes to our reproduction and our survival as a dominant species, starting from ourselves and ending with the environment we live in and we're part of? Why are we so eager to legislate on stupid things, but so reluctant when it comes to ensuring the fitness of new generations and the long-term well-being of human society? Why do we prefer to invest in war and reality-TV instead of genetic engineering and other countless ways of improving ourselves?


bitRAKE wrote:
the beauty of nature is that it can't produce a perfect machine

Nature makes imperfect machines, and we supposedly intelligent beings must strive to make these machines better, or else we should store our intelligence somewhere safe and let the next most intelligent species take our place.

bitRAKE wrote:
Imagine clothes that never wear out.

And how would that be wrong exactly?


asmcoder wrote:
they handled it very well in Sparta.

Yeah, but a little too harsh and unnecessary for our time, though.
Post 05 Jul 2009, 08:50
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
ManOfSteel wrote:
Some better questions for you: Why do we, humans, let all disabled people be born in the first place? Why are we so reckless when it comes to our reproduction and our survival as a dominant species, starting from ourselves and ending with the environment we live in and we're part of? Why are we so eager to legislate on stupid things, but so reluctant when it comes to ensuring the fitness of new generations and the long-term well-being of human society? Why do we prefer to invest in war and reality-TV instead of genetic engineering and other countless ways of improving ourselves?
Difference of opinion mate. You wonder why we are stupid, but they wonder why you think this way too Razz

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Post 05 Jul 2009, 15:21
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ManOfSteel



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ManOfSteel
Borsuc wrote:
Difference of opinion

It's fact, not opinion, regardless of whether or not you believe in (a) G/god, religion, ideology, particular lifestyle, etc.
People are born with defects because something went awry during their development, not because some supernatural being deliberately decided they should grow an extra lung, have thalassemia or be more likely to get some type of cancer in the future.
We, as an intelligent species have the power to change that. But do we have the willingness, or are we too blinded by artificial moralisms that we surrender to our pitiful situation and flatly say: "it's fate" or "it's *'s will"?


Borsuc wrote:
they wonder why you think this way too

Yeeees. And the day we have advanced genetic engineering and we are able to solve our defects, overcome our limitations and live longer, happier and more fruitful lives, I hope they refuse it and go extinct.
Post 05 Jul 2009, 16:18
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
ManOfSteel wrote:
We, as an intelligent species have the power to change that. But do we have the willingness
like I said, difference of opinion.

and I was talking about stuff like e.g:
ManOfSteel wrote:
Why do we prefer to invest in war and reality-TV instead of genetic engineering and other countless ways of improving ourselves?
Wink

ManOfSteel wrote:
Yeeees. And the day we have advanced genetic engineering and we are able to solve our defects, overcome our limitations and live longer, happier and more fruitful lives, I hope they refuse it and go extinct.
Unless you get nuked by them before that happens Wink

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Post 05 Jul 2009, 17:58
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bitRAKE



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bitRAKE
ManOfSteel, I would like to posit that perfection is an illusion put forth by people stuck in time. Nature has an error rate which we have yet to match in a changing system. Look at any example of our "making better" and you will see a device designed for a very limited environment, a device which cannot adapt, a device which ceases to function with the slightest perturbation.

Nature is a master of imperfection - how perfect!

Clothes which lasted forever: how would they be made? how many items should be made? Guess we only need one factory as long as it keeps up with demand (birth/death rate?). How destructive would variation be? Everyone on the planet now wants blue underwear! We are not culturally ready for this kind of technology, imho.
Post 05 Jul 2009, 18:44
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
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tom tobias
sleepsleep, describing those with mental impairments, wrote:
they are here, and living in our community.

Aren't we all mentally impaired, in comparison to other individuals, and other species?
Watch a hawk, circling overhead. Try to imagine that kind of visual acuity.
Think of a dolphin's mental gymnastics, able to distinguish a brass plate from an aluminum plate, both 10cm in size, at a distance of 100 meters.
Sense of smell? We have almost none, compared with other animals.
Balance, mobility: ever watch a pair of spider monkeys in the South American Jungle? Puts humans to shame.

Mental skills are a gradient, not an absolute. Some of us are more adept at certain activities than others. As we age, some of those mental faculties diminish. It won't be long before I will be joining your colleagues in the government run shelter for the disabled.

Smile
Post 06 Jul 2009, 00:07
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
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ManOfSteel
Borsuc wrote:
Unless you get nuked by them before that happens

Here's how I see the future. It's a future where "they" wouldn't have the chance or possibility of nuking "us".
Even if I don't personally like this, I think genetic engineering will be introduced as a new commercial trend of the pharmaceutical and health industries duo, a bit like plastic surgery or slimming pills. This will definitely happen, because it's profitable beyond any doubt and huge profits is the only thing that motivates corporations. It will probably begin like many other revolutionary innovations: hesitant debut, big fiascos, highly mediatized trials, etc. But as time goes by, it will be perfected, public reluctance will fade, and more and more people will try it as they will want "what the neighbor has" and experience the truly incredible gains.
We're not talking about losing X pounds in N weeks or getting basketball-sized boobs, we're talking about extending our lives and still being able to be fully active and productive, fixing all our genetic diseases, eradiating most cancers, enhancing our 5 senses (this one is for tom tobias), etc. And all this is still genetic engineering alone. There are so many other possibilities!
Humanity will inevitably be divided into 2 factions. But this is not a problem, because it's a totally unequal war. Natural selection will take care of the victory, and you should already know who will win the final battle.
In a few generations, the pure humans who rejected any "tampering with God's creation", will become an ever-shrinking minority. They will logically reproduce among themselves to preserve their purity, and by doing so, they will also collect and reproduce every single defect known to Man, thus sealing their fate. There will be a lot of shouting, a lot of lobbying, maybe even some terrorism, which, by the way, will only cause further alienation from society as the enhanced powerful majority will try to eradicate them for being terrorists. That sounds quite familiar.
On the other hand, you'll have the transhumans who embraced genetic engineering and probably many other enhancing technologies long ago. Those will be better in every way. In other words, they'll be more competitive in the evolutionary arena, and more attractive as reproductive mates.
These 2 trends will continue exponentially, until the highly defective old-fashioned human goes extinct. Good riddance!



bitRAKE wrote:
perfection is an illusion put forth by people stuck in time [...] a device which cannot adapt, a device which ceases to function with the slightest perturbation

Perfection is not an illusion. It simply doesn't exist. We cannot even have standards to define it. Like all universal, immutable and absolute notions, it was invented by metaphysicians and poets who wanted to describe... God.
You misunderstood what I said. By making ourselves better (I always say better, not perfect), we are not trying to achieve some fantasy perfection, we are trying to become more competitive in a Darwinian sense. That makes us more apt to adapt to the changing environment and therefore more apt to survive as a species. THAT is what it's all about.

bitRAKE wrote:
Clothes which lasted forever: how would they be made? how many items should be made?

I don't know. I'm not the one who brought this up in the first place since it has nothing to do with enhancing ourselves biologically. But nanotechnology and its nanoassemblers and nanofactories applications (still mostly theoretical, I concur) look very promising and could be the answer to your question.

bitRAKE wrote:
How destructive would variation be? Everyone on the planet now wants blue underwear!

But this exact problem is much more of a problem with the current state of affairs. Consumerism encourages people to buy new products even if the "old" ones are still good and useful. Don't think underwear only, think consumer electronics.
To continue with the previous idea, nanotechnology could render this process superfluous as products will be assembled and re-assembled endlessly, from the nearby environment, into other products as the need arises.
This could change the course of history and may well be more important than the invention of the internal combustion engine. But this is mere speculation and might have less chance to succeed, at least in the near future, than genetic engineering.



tom tobias wrote:
in comparison to other individuals, and other species

Yes, it's all relative. We have our own needs and our own evolutionary development that makes us what we are. We don't have this or that attribute, because we simply don't need it for our survival.
But it doesn't necessarily have to be so. We can enhance the many parts that we consider as deficient, and we would be able to see the world in a way we never saw it.
Post 06 Jul 2009, 07:30
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bitRAKE



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bitRAKE
ManOfSteel wrote:
I don't know. I'm not the one who brought this up in the first place since it has nothing to do with enhancing ourselves biologically.
Yeah, why bother with clothes - we could genetically engineer some type of super-skin.
ManOfSteel wrote:
we are trying to become more competitive
Competition is what happens when resources are limited. Are you suggesting a process which forces resource struggles to heighten the pressures on fitness? A kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Post 06 Jul 2009, 10:59
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Borsuc



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Borsuc
ManOfSteel wrote:
Here's how I see the future. It's a future where "they" wouldn't have the chance or possibility of nuking "us".
Even if I don't personally like this, I think genetic engineering will be introduced as a new commercial trend of the pharmaceutical and health industries duo, a bit like plastic surgery or slimming pills. This will definitely happen, because it's profitable beyond any doubt and huge profits is the only thing that motivates corporations. It will probably begin like many other revolutionary innovations: hesitant debut, big fiascos, highly mediatized trials, etc. But as time goes by, it will be perfected, public reluctance will fade, and more and more people will try it as they will want "what the neighbor has" and experience the truly incredible gains.
We're not talking about losing X pounds in N weeks or getting basketball-sized boobs, we're talking about extending our lives and still being able to be fully active and productive, fixing all our genetic diseases, eradiating most cancers, enhancing our 5 senses (this one is for tom tobias), etc. And all this is still genetic engineering alone. There are so many other possibilities!
Humanity will inevitably be divided into 2 factions. But this is not a problem, because it's a totally unequal war.
I think you're off track and a bit fantasy. Most likely that thing will never happen, because by the time we got that, we'll have artificial intelligence machines. Those are the future, not humans, if we don't get nuked until then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Razz

ManOfSteel wrote:
Natural selection will take care of the victory
Natural selection hasn't worked since the dawn of medicine thousands of years ago.
And it will stop working completely when AIs are in place. IF we don't get nuked until then, again.

And genetical engineering won't save you from nukes either. On the other hand, AIs will have vastly improved potential compared to humans.

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Post 06 Jul 2009, 13:48
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dosin



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
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dosin
Quote:
why God created mental disabled people? and let them sort of suffer on earth.


well to be short .. I guess he(God) did.. but there was a time on earth when it would have been delt with.. in the animal/our world - animals get rid of the weak or its sorted out by nature... We have become so advanced and believe every human good/bad/disabled/slow ect .. deserve a chance -So humans have taken it out a natures/gods hands and desided that all humans shall live and deserve a chance at life.. in some cases - it has proven to be a good result.. and others.. not so good.. Its in our nature to try and help our disabled/week/sick..


Quote:
NUKES,NUKES,NUKES
Laughing
I would be more worried about natural selection..
new human viruses are springing up and new strands of bacteria...
I think this would be more likely outcome for humans..
if it becomes airborn and kills fast it could wipe us off the face
of this planet.. by the time we figure it out.. to late! The end..


Quote:
losing X pounds in N weeks or getting basketball-sized boobs
Why not sounds like a good topic! Laughing
Post 07 Jul 2009, 02:45
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HyperVista



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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HyperVista
here in USA we have a good way of keeping them engaged. we send them to Redmond, WA and get them working on operating systems. <just a joke> Very Happy you can substitute Berkley, CA for Redmond, WA if you wish.. Wink
Post 07 Jul 2009, 16:37
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Quote:

Some better questions for you: Why do we, humans, let all disabled people be born in the first place?

no, some mental disabled people are coz by after life factors, eg. broken in love, loss all his/her properties,money, too high dosage drugs, accident, etc.

Quote:

Why are we so eager to legislate on stupid things, but so reluctant when it comes to ensuring the fitness of new generations and the long-term well-being of human society? Why do we prefer to invest in war and reality-TV instead of genetic engineering and other countless ways of improving ourselves?

idk why the fuck they like war so much, i 2 have no idea.


if mental disabled people totally have no idea about their illness. then what is going on?? they think we are mental disabled. so. who is mental disabled.

then how the world gonna help them? by feeding them more drugs and drugs? make them sleep, tired, and just eat, shit, and sleep?

idk who on earth, have really total understanding regarding to such problem, perhaps anyone who know could give in some link and let us all try listen to?
Post 07 Jul 2009, 17:05
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
sleepsleep wrote:
no, some mental disabled people are coz by after life factors, eg. broken in love, loss all his/her properties,money, too high dosage drugs, accident, etc.
not to be picky but the bold part is entirely their fault and I wouldn't feel bad about them. They deserve it. (the others not of course!)

sleepsleep wrote:
idk why the fuck they like war so much, i 2 have no idea.
Few like War (maybe only Napoleon and probably Hitler). They like the outcome. that is, without the opponent shit, in their eyes. Razz

sleepsleep wrote:
then how the world gonna help them? by feeding them more drugs and drugs? make them sleep, tired, and just eat, shit, and sleep?
Well you think that's all there is to a person?
I mean, what do we, the healthy ones, do all day? We eat, work, eat, work some more, eat, shit, go home, sleep.

Of course my point is that there's more to life than material things. Razz

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Post 07 Jul 2009, 22:54
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