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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
I would somewhat agree with you, if it wasn't the most popular however.
Post 27 Aug 2009, 14:30
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Azu
The flat Earth model used to be most popular..
Post 27 Aug 2009, 14:33
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
Yeah but right now it would cause a lot of trouble for people to switch to Linux if they only used Windows. It is why the "wine" project actually started at all!

Also I think the Windows API is, in some places, better than Linux which I heard is rarely backwards compatible and programs need to be recompiled. This is bad for commercial software which does exist btw, and will exist (not that I'm a fan of it, just the reality).
Post 27 Aug 2009, 14:35
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Azu
Cartographers and geographers had a lot of trouble/work to do when the flat Earth model was abandoned. Yet, abandoned it was.
Post 27 Aug 2009, 14:36
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pete



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 110
pete
Quote:
SCENARIO 2 (the PROPER way, even with flawed humans):
Programmers: "Alright we implemented the standard specification, but then people complained other devices didn't work. We told them we refuse to implement broken standards, and they should complain to the device manufacturer for using a different standard. This is the only way to keep things in order and not end up in pure chaos."


COMPANY 1 using device with broken standard:
We will give you 1.000.000 $ if you find a way to handle our device with the broken standard correctly.

I wouldn't refuse the offer…

Anyway, i see your point and agree: one standard for all over the world would be the finest for us programmers! But it doesn't seem that simple. When f.i. you write an application for a large company, the company pays a lot of money and wants you to write an application that EVERYONE of their employees can use; now if the company has settlements in Japan, India, Russia and the U.S., and only 60 % of the employees in Japan, India and Russia handle the english language, you're probably forced to write a multi-language application.
Of course the application documentation can be written in different languages. But if computers were first produced in Russia, all applications would be written in russian; would you enjoy using a russian application?? Well, you simply have to learn russian like you learned english.

And now face this: every area in the world uses it's own language; books are all written in latinum (as the really were for a long time), computer applications are all done in english, foods in the supermarket are all labeled in french, tombstones are all labeled in russian, and so forth.

Nowadays i can communicate with people all over the world via the internet, but one hundred years ago it was impossible. We weren't even able to fly across the ocean. Back then it would have been impossible to define one language as world-wide standard. Today we probably could, but it would cost an enormous amount of money.
Post 28 Aug 2009, 06:35
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
But you see, even if it satisfies the current crowd by having multiple standards, ultimately it's chaos for people who have to understand ALL of them or MULTIPLE of them. It sounds nice to satisfy a crowd but in reality all it makes is "inter-standard communication" or understanding or "translators", or "mappers" (for hardware devices), etc... PITA

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Post 28 Aug 2009, 15:29
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17278
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
Borsuc: If there was only one world standard for things then which OS would be the standard? CP/M? DOS? Windows (which one?)? Linux (which one?)? Other? - Or which assembler would be "the standard" MASM? TASM? WASM? NASM? fasm? SPASM? RosASM?

You, see there is never one standard that will please or suit everyone. There are always situations that encourage people to do their own thing. Basic human nature.


Last edited by revolution on 28 Aug 2009, 15:35; edited 1 time in total
Post 28 Aug 2009, 15:34
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1160
Azu
Borsuc wrote:
But you see, even if it satisfies the current crowd by having multiple standards, ultimately it's chaos for people who have to understand ALL of them or MULTIPLE of them. It sounds nice to satisfy a crowd but in reality all it makes is "inter-standard communication" or understanding or "translators", or "mappers" (for hardware devices), etc... PITA
You're right; so let's get rid of cdecl, fastcall, and all custom calling conventions, so everyone must use stdcall.. it's not good to have more than one way to do something, right? Laughing
Also let's get rid of Windows and Mac and all the BSDs, so everyone just uses Linux..
Oh and don't forget to stop biological evolution. After all, diversity is the devil, right? Let's have everyone be clones with 100% identical genes then!


P.S. remove all instructions except loop, since it is really all that's needed for a perfectly turing capable computer. Why have all these instructions just to do the same thing in the end, right?
Laughing
Post 28 Aug 2009, 15:34
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
No because those are useful -- either performance-wise or some other effect (obviously). But ultimately, if you have 100 standards and your software has to support them all for no necessary reason, it will likely be slower and much more bloated (I mean the code size for supporting them all would be much bigger).

And it's not that diversity is bad. It's when you implement something that supports them both. stdcall and fastcall don't need software to implement them, because either a function uses one or the other -- the CPU doesn't care since they both use instructions -- you don't need to redesign the CPU to use a different function.

However, if a function has stdcall in one place, and the same function fastcall in another app, then that's obviously the "bad thing" here if you plan to load the .dll and use it (you'll have to e.g check for dll version or something to support both, so it's bad -- in short the program has to be AWARE of both).

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Post 28 Aug 2009, 15:47
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Azu
Multiple string conventions are also useful.

The single byte ones like latin1 are very small and fast, great when you only need 256 different characters.

The variable ones like utf8 are versatile, still only 1 byte for the first 128 characters, and getting 32768 with one more byte (only needed when it's not one of the first 128 characters), great when most of the letters are of the first 128 but you need support for others.

The fixed length wide ones like unicode are fast, and don't waste space if most of the characters used are in a wide range (e.g. Kanji). Great for big character sets.

They all have their uses, see? And none of them take much code to implement.
Post 28 Aug 2009, 15:54
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Borsuc
But that wasn't my point at all! Like I said Unicode is still useful if you want to message people in their native languages etc.

But I'm talking about technical computer-related communication.
The problem here isn't necessarily the computer software to deal with these, or fonts, or whatever. It's the humans themselves. I mean, they (humans) are like devices that use different USB standards, and they can't work at the same time unless they're aware of both standards (i.e they speak the same language). THIS is the problem, and it will only get WORSE if no one will step up and refuse to work with them, to force them to use one common standard. (like I explained previously) Razz

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Post 28 Aug 2009, 20:34
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Azu
Humans will never standardize their native languages like they do in sci-fi. Far too much pride to consider abandoning their nation's traditional language.
Post 29 Aug 2009, 04:03
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
damn I must have really bad communication skills.
I don't say they should abandon it, hell no, I'm romanian myself (although I also like english).

I mean in COMMUNICATING about TECHNICAL matters. They should make the damn EFFORT to learn a COMMON language and USE THAT ONLY. Obviously here english.

You know, it's a GOOD thing that C(++) and similar languages are POPULAR because otherwise it would have been a DISASTER, especially in open-source area. Imagine someone who only knows language X to try to add improvements to an app written in language Y!

In your normal "traditional" life, just be like you were before, I never said anything about that. Smile


(of course, asm and C serve different purposes and complement each other, so that doesn't apply -- japanese and swedish, on the other hand, don't "complement" each other and both are for the same purpose: probably comments in source code or more technical specifications docs etc).
Post 29 Aug 2009, 15:38
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Azu
There are a lot of technical symbols for algebraic notations that need multi-byte character sets, aren't there?
Post 29 Aug 2009, 15:45
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
Yeah well, math-notation sucks in my opinion, programming-notation or pseudo-algorithm are much more intuitive to grasp. But then that's just my opinion. Most math notation is images on wikipedia anyway.
Post 29 Aug 2009, 16:02
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