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Picnic



Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 1288
Location: behind the arc
Picnic
I'm using Crimson Editor for all my scripting needs.
Post 01 Jul 2009, 12:54
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
shoorick wrote:
Smile utf-8 is handy not for chinese only, but with any language different from your system codepage. for example, my system has 1251 codepage. this means with ANSI application i can not edit properly text written in 1252 codepage, say, with german specific characters or french or spanish accented characters, while it can be possible with UNICODE application.

from other side, ANSI applications, which have such west europian characters in labels look incorrectly on my system, as such characters are replaced with corresponded cyrillic letters etc.

UNICODE has future, as computers must depend on human, not human on computers Wink
I disagree, this is against the KISS principle totally.
And it also wastes 2 bytes per char yuck.

Human must not depend on computer. But human has to learn that to communicate with computer, he must speak english.

Everything would be a lot easier if only english was accepted as language for computers. And no, I'm not a native english speaker, so I'm not biased.

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Post 01 Jul 2009, 13:54
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1607
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
Quote:

I disagree, this is against the KISS principle totally.

try to work with international texts through ansi and through unicode, and then compare what is simpler in real Wink

Quote:

But human has to learn that to communicate with computer, he must speak english.

i would not like to start hot discussion on this question (endless and useless), i just say i will never agree with this Wink
Post 01 Jul 2009, 14:15
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
shoorick wrote:
try to work with international texts through ansi and through unicode, and then compare what is simpler in real Wink
None, since I don't know any other language anyway (except romanian, my native one).

I mean, having ONE language would be MUCH simpler both in storing as ANSI and not confusing people. For instance, if programmers started programming in native languages, it would be very HARD for someone who doesn't speak it to understand the source code.

Using just one, in this case english, would simplify A LOT. And avoid 2 bytes per char too.

Multiple languages may be interesting culturally, but it is a failure in technical stuff. And we all know english is the most suited for technical terms because it's the "mother" of computers, so to speak. (I mean even computer languages are made in english).

Sometimes I see source code in japanese. Do you seriously think that the problem here is that it's ANSI? The biggest problem for me is that I cannot understand the comments, and Unicode won't solve that AT ALL!

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Post 01 Jul 2009, 14:38
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1607
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
seems, we are talking about slightly different things: you are talking about comments in code in different languages, while i've been talking about resources in different languages at once (=building of user interface).

what about comments in japanese: there are different goals of writing comments: for ownself, for all and for somebody exactly. for ownself - it's a matter of programmer, he may write comments and name labels as handy to him, for all - english prefered, i agree, for somebody exactly - it is a busyness of these two persons.

but anyway: in source you may need compare symbols in specific codepage or have such kind of strings. in this case unicode support by text editor is very handy.

finally, if you see comments in other language CORRECTLY - you may guess often the sense or even translate them, but with ANSI editor you will not be able even see them correctly (i mean different codepage). eg. unicode is what you see is what you have Wink

regards!
Post 02 Jul 2009, 04:55
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
I think Unicode is bad not only because it wastes 2 bytes per char, but also because it promotes multiple languages, which is bad as far as programming is concerned IMO.

Of course I am not against Unicode for, let's say, websites or stuff like that. But for technical/programming work?

Lastly, if I got hold of that guy's source, it means he must have known he was going to release it. It's also useful for international collaboration even if sources aren't released, or a former employee, etc... New employees who will take over will have a hard time if they don't understand that language.

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Post 02 Jul 2009, 15:28
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 535
drhowarddrfine
On the 'net, you need utf to display the characters of all the different languages.
Post 02 Jul 2009, 15:32
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Chewy509



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 297
Location: Bris-vegas, Australia
Chewy509
I'm tending to use Sun Studio 12 these days...
Post 03 Jul 2009, 01:20
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semiono



Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Posts: 176
Location: section '.code' executable
semiono
Fasmw beautyful IDE that is phylosophy! Ascetic and minimalistic, I like It! And default highlight always cool fo me!
sometimes i use EmEditor...
Post 03 Jul 2009, 22:58
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1607
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
pete wrote:
But when it comes to GUI design, ... i make use of ResEdit.


well, i have upgraded my dlg2fasm converter, so it now handles ResEdit-made rc-files. as ResEdit uses "WC_" wrappers instead of direct class names an additional include required (attached)


Description:
Download
Filename: dlg2fasm.0.4.0.0.zip
Filesize: 12.74 KB
Downloaded: 79 Time(s)

Description:
Download
Filename: wclasses.inc
Filesize: 675 Bytes
Downloaded: 90 Time(s)

Description: utf8 without BOM
Download
Filename: result.utf8.ZIP
Filesize: 1.26 KB
Downloaded: 80 Time(s)


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UNICODE forever!
Post 31 Jul 2009, 08:42
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1159
Azu
I used to be a low-level purist but now I use an extremely high-level IDE called EditPlus. I feel ashamed but I can't help it >_> it's just so much nicer to work in, and the ~3MB memory usage isn't bad compared to the other super high-level IDEs out there.
Post 31 Jul 2009, 09:27
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
Notepad++ is better
Post 31 Jul 2009, 19:31
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pete



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 110
pete
Today i noticed that there is a user called peter on this board; i followed his "www" and stumbled across the site The Absolute Minimum Every Software Developer Absolutely, Positively Must Know About Unicode and Character Sets (No Excuses!), which i found interesting and it also seems to fit in the discussion shoorick/Borsuc. It is worth a read for all those who haven't bothered about unicode yet.
Post 21 Aug 2009, 07:06
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1607
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
yes, i have seen it before - it must to be read (and followed)
Post 21 Aug 2009, 07:13
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
For me unicode and all non-ASCII stuff sounds like "let's support both decimal and binary computers, for the heck of it". It's against simplicity principle (this matters for ANY programmer, whether optimizing or not), against optimization (mostly asm and some C programmers), and really against simplicity (did I say it again?).

I realize it's necessary for web apps, but really, for source code parsing or anything like that, it's a step backwards, like going from binary to decimal in calculations -- even worse, supporting both!


EDIT: Klingon letters, didn't know it had those. That's retarded. Look what's going to waste in a "standard". Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Borsuc on 21 Aug 2009, 14:40; edited 1 time in total
Post 21 Aug 2009, 14:37
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1159
Azu
Borsuc wrote:
For me unicode and all non-ASCII stuff sounds like "let's support both decimal and binary computers, for the heck of it". It's against simplicity principle (this matters for ANY programmer, whether optimizing or not), against optimization (mostly asm and some C programmers), and really against simplicity (did I say it again?).

I realize it's necessary for web apps, but really, for source code parsing or anything like that, it's a step backwards, like going from binary to decimal in calculations -- even worse, supporting both!
What if you want to hard-code some of the strings (e.g. an error page or something) for the website? Wouldn't it be much easier if the compiler supported it instead of you having to write them in as bytecode?




Borsuc wrote:
EDIT: Klingon letters, didn't know it had those. That's retarded. Look what's going to waste in a "standard". Rolling Eyes
They aren't part of the standard.
Post 21 Aug 2009, 14:40
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shoorick



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1607
Location: Ukraine
shoorick
Quote:

and really against simplicity (did I say it again?)

untill you are withing basic latin alphabet (did I say it again?)
or how do you think, how much it is simple to me to read this mess because of bad codepage support? (see screenshot)


Description:
Filesize: 2.97 KB
Viewed: 3267 Time(s)

badutf.png



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Post 25 Aug 2009, 04:51
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
@shoorick: I can't read that, latin or non-latin. Since most people use english, and since english is simple (in the number of letters I mean) without "special" lettersr requiring more bytes, it is the most logical choice.

Of course, if people learned hexadecimal that would be more logical, and simpler, but we aren't there yet. However we ARE closer with english (or other languages with simple characters) but we're stubborn.

It's like wanting to move from binary to decimal. Definitely this isn't for simplicity's sake.

Not to mention, english is the "father" language of technical details, and no wonder, since computers (and computer terms) were invented in english (USA). Ever heard how a french pronounces DVD? It's retarded, he speaks as if it's a french word, and not an acronym (acronyms don't have 'dialects', 'different meanings' or other crap like that).

Azu wrote:
What if you want to hard-code some of the strings (e.g. an error page or something) for the website? Wouldn't it be much easier if the compiler supported it instead of you having to write them in as bytecode?
Import a file.

well some compilers/languages are retards and don't allow it like Fasm so... their fault.
Post 25 Aug 2009, 14:45
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f0dder



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Denmark
f0dder
Borsuc wrote:
Of course, if people learned hexadecimal that would be more logical, and simpler, but we aren't there yet.
More logical and simpler? reading hexadecimal requires two glyphs on the screen, and convey semantic value than a single specialized glyph; that that specialized glyph might take up two (or more) bytes has about no relevance to logical/simpler.

Quote:
Ever heard how a french pronounces DVD? It's retarded, he speaks as if it's a french word, and not an acronym (acronyms don't have 'dialects', 'different meanings' or other crap like that).
I beg to differ; have you ever met anybody who pronounces RAM as R-A-M, native English speaker or not? Do you pronounce ASM as A-S-M?

Azu wrote:
What if you want to hard-code some of the strings (e.g. an error page or something) for the website? Wouldn't it be much easier if the compiler supported it instead of you having to write them in as bytecode?
Import a file.

well some compilers/languages are retards and don't allow it like Fasm so... their fault.[/quote]I kinda agree here, except I'd say "never hardcode strings" - keep them in an external resource that's easy to manage. If something is worth internationalizing, it's worth doing well :]

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Post 25 Aug 2009, 14:57
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2466
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Borsuc
f0dder wrote:
I beg to differ; have you ever met anybody who pronounces RAM as R-A-M, native English speaker or not? Do you pronounce ASM as A-S-M?
Well of course not, since I live in Romania myself (and my native language is romanian). I thought technical people did though.

Asm isn't an acronym though Very Happy

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Post 25 Aug 2009, 14:59
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