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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Quote:

Greed. Desire for power. Megalomania. Lots of human character flaws would still present themselves even of money is not around.


Quote:

Same reason as above; Greed. Desire for power. Megalomania. Lots of human character flaws would still present themselves even of money is not around.

but this exists in money based society too..

are you stressing "greed" is the problem we face, and we need to deal with this first?

so moneyless society only exists if only perfect human exists? so long as there exists greedy people, lazy people, no system would be perfect?
Post 11 Jul 2010, 16:47
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
revolution wrote:
ManOfSteel, eliminating money would just shift the focus to other assets.

Scenario 1:
I steal your land/house/children and use them for my own purposes. What would be my incentive to steal if I already have the "essentials" given to me? 1) I would not value the "essentials" because they come for free and I didn't put any effort into it. 2) Greed. Desire for power. Megalomania. Lots of human character flaws would still present themselves even of money is not around.


You can not steal anything of value beacuse there is no property over my land and hence it can not be stolen. There is no property over my house and hence it can not be stolen. The childrens are not mine and not with me and thus I can not loose them.

You do not have to value what is given to you in order not to try an steal.

Effort does not add value to things ... in fact it is quite the opposite: effort adds "crime tag" to things. Effort makes you attach to your target and become able to kill or be killed for it.

Everybody has exactly the very same house with the very same objects inside. Each object/house is in my "temporary" use until I die. Yoy can not have two objects or houses or lands.

You can not have more thatn somebody else. If you die you can not leave inheritance.

You can try to steal just for the sake of the "art" but you will be found and punished and you will gain nothing from this. We will lough at you and then we will think of a way to "re-educate" you Very Happy

I have seen it first hand during comunism: greed dimminished dramatically and all bad humman traits diminished dramatically. Of course that they made mistakes (dictatorship, ierarchical power, allow family and childrens) and this made it fail but not the concepts.

Human flaws are not born. They are educated because of abuse or loss or lack of resources. When those reasons are eliminated all people become good by design.

Of course that the initiall generations will be plagued by their "childhood" and will need extra survelance but in time this will diminish.

Quote:

Scenario 2:
I take over the distribution chain of the free "essentials" and control it.


You can not "take over" because nobody owns it and hence it can not be "taken over"

Quote:

You want food? Okay, just do this thing for me.


Impossible, everybody gets exactly the same ammount of food.

Quote:

Why would I do this? Same reason as above; Greed. Desire for power.


There is no such thing if there is no lack of resources. Those things grow out of property and ierarchical power chains. When there is no leadership there is no power to take or use.

Quote:

Megalomania. Lots of human character flaws would still present themselves even of money is not around.


Not so many... and not for very log. It is expected to be a problem for a while at start beacuse of the inherent damage made to humman beeing by curent social organization... but it will fade in time...

Money does exacerbate those flaws and induces them even into good people. It is an huge task and efforet to be good in today social organization and most people fail in some way or another. It is not their fault it is the environment that forces them to.

In a corect organization those faults will be diminished and made extinct in a few generations.


Quote:

Scenario 3:
I freeload off the system.


You can not. Everybody gets eactly the same.

When the system allowed you to be born then the resources for your whole life have been put away. Even if you contribute nothig back to the system the system is capable to "take that with no problem".

An analysis will be made after you die in order to understand what was the "problem" (if any) and if the system can be improved in such a way as to help you use your native talents better.

Quote:

Why would I do this? Because I can and I like to be lazy.


There is no real purpose and it can not be done.

Lazy is a very good thing, it generates creativity after a while.
Work generates insanity after a while.

Activity and "work" are a trick that the salve masters that control the society today have inserted into you mind.

Work is in fact an insult... unfortunately an insult we must take and perform every day... and then we are "learned" to love work ...

Do not get me wrong: I work every day very much, but I do not have to also belive it is "a good thing" TM

Quote:

The people working hard to give me free things


There is no such thing as "working hard".

Everybody creates if he/she wants to an donly when they want to... In the end all will be automated and robotic... robots do not have resentiments...

Machines (without conscient AI) do not care that they work "for you" ... it is just programms...

If there is a need (and it will be at start-up) then everybody works the same.

Quote:

get resentful and decide to stop giving me stuff.


Machines do not care... humans do not work that hard as the resources for you are allready stocked.

And do not forget that WE did allow you to be born and we did educated you... maybe we made a mistake IF you choose to do such things...

But in such a situation I really doubt you would and I doubt you would even compreghend the concept of stealing... or abusing the system... maybe in a history manual

Quote:

I didn't earn it so I don't deserve it.


In fact if you "earned" it the you do NOT deserve it...

Did you earned you life or was it given to you?


Quote:

Scenario 4:
Everyone just does what they want because they like it?


More because they are bored Smile)

Quote:

Well everyone likes to be lazy and watch TV.


Not really. They behave like this after HARD WORK. This is a "fast-food like" method of relaxation because you must go to work next day... agaian and again adn again... until you die.

In fact most people like to do many things... IF they are gived the chanche AFTER a needed period of relaxation after a lifetime of work.

Quote:

But no one is there to make the TV programs.


Of course... there is no need for such things... unless you like pre-historic relaxation methods...

Quote:

Not enough people enjoy tilling endless fields for corn


Then machines will do that.

Quote:

so very few do it and the world no longer has enough corn to eat.


No kidding... machines do not care how many corn fields they harvest and inseminate and take care of.

Quote:

And so on with other products.


Yes ultimately all other products will be made by machines in an automated "no humman" process.

Unless you WANT to do it yourself...because ... huh you like this Smile)

Quote:

No incentive to make/grow them.


Initial incentive is the need, then the technology to make machines to do it... then to improve them, then to make them individual, then to make them not even needed anymore, then... then... then... plenty of incentives IMHO

Quote:
I make/grow just enough for me. Forget about everyone else. Without the incentive to do the things that are needed, people would do the things they enjoy, but people don't enjoy doing the things that are needed.


In the end yes, comunity MUST be eliminated and each humman will be a GOD himself...

NO need for others.

Every thing you need you have and can generate yourself.

This is the endof the evolution. You do no see a GOD having any kind of need that depends on "others" ... do you?

Quote:

Who cleans the toilets?


At start everybody by rotation, then the machines, then they magically clean themself... then there is no toilet need anymore Wink

_________________
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger,
more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage --
to move in the opposite direction."


Last edited by bogdanontanu on 11 Jul 2010, 17:08; edited 1 time in total
Post 11 Jul 2010, 16:58
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
are you stressing "greed" is the problem we face, and we need to deal with this first?

so moneyless society only exists if only perfect human exists? so long as there exists greedy people, lazy people, no system would be perfect?
Yeah, you got my point, good. It is not the money that makes people like that; it is that people that are like that, no matter how the society is structured and no matter if money is there or not.

So trying to eliminate money is not going to solve the root cause. And it would create more problems than it solves. People would just substitute something else in place of the money and use that as a proxy.

Try not to focus on the money as the problem. It is merely the current method our society uses to provide us a convenient method of trade and reward. Money solves a LOT of problems. It solves far more problems than it causes. Just like a knife can be used for both good and bad things, but it does more good than it does bad.
Post 11 Jul 2010, 17:07
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 403
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bogdanontanu
Unfortunately greed is generated by money Very Happy
Post 11 Jul 2010, 17:15
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Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
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Tyler
> comunity MUST be eliminated and each huma will be a GOD himself
Wait, this is the whole point behind capitalism, and the opposite of communism. In capitalism, the individual has the power to be their own god. They can sit around and do nothing all day, and live with less, or they can work hard, and earn what they want. They power behind the free market model is that it allows, by unregulation, those with the determination to have whatever they want, to be able to get it. But in communism, you age force d to support thse to lazy to support them selves, and to be of the same level as them. It forces everyone to be equal to the lowest common denominator, because no one can have more than anyone else. How can you argue that the government holding you back from your potential makes you god of yourself?


Last edited by Tyler on 11 Jul 2010, 17:23; edited 1 time in total
Post 11 Jul 2010, 17:20
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 17338
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
revolution
bogdanontanu wrote:
Unfortunately greed is generated by money Very Happy
That is false. Greed is inherent in a person. It can be expressed by a desire for money, or indeed anything else that is considered of value to that person. Have you never heard of a greedy eater?
Post 11 Jul 2010, 17:20
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ManOfSteel



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1154
ManOfSteel
revolution wrote:
I steal your land/house

Tell me, how often do you steal a public bench or square meter of macadam. And no, I'm not talking about pranks!
Besides, this has nothing to do with money. If I'm currently living somewhere and someone tries to kick me out, I'll cut his balls off and feed them to him whether the society I live in uses money or not. There are plenty of abandoned houses all over the world they can "steal" hahaha.
And who said police will suddenly disappear with money? Yes, there would be much less crime, but it doesn't hurt anyone to have a few people taking care of the rare cases.

revolution wrote:
children

Sorry to be blunt, but the only use I can think of for stealing children in a moneyless society is pedophilia, which already exists in money-based societies. Also most people are not pedophiles and would not start becoming pedophiles as soon as money is abolished. Why did you bring this up?

revolution wrote:
What would be my incentive to steal if I already have the "essentials" given to me? 1) I would not value the "essentials" because they come for free and I didn't put any effort into it. 2) Greed. Desire for power. Megalomania. Lots of human character flaws would still present themselves even of money is not around.

"Human nature", ideas, behaviors, values, norms, etc. are not set in stone. They all change throughout time because the environment, our material conditions, our needs, our wants, our social constructs, etc. are not immutable, universal and eternal.
But in any way, people really have much better things to do with their precious time than steal each others' personal belongings and dwellings when they themselves already have ones. Unless of course they're severely kleptomaniac and belong in a mental institution. And if they forcefully do this for no better reason than a personality quirk, then they're probably dangerous psychopaths that need to be locked up ASAP. Do you know many people like that? Just curious...

revolution wrote:
I take over the distribution chain of the free "essentials" and control it.

Hilarious! Once people have experienced the benefits of equal access to the produce of society, none will want, bear to or be able to live without it. You were already proposing to outrage someone by kicking him out of his home, now that? You really want to die, eh? Even if, by a stupendous miracle, you managed to organize the GM3A™ (Greedy Megalomaniac Angry Asshole Association), I suspect it'll end up with you being hunted down by several thousand people with clubs.

revolution wrote:
I freeload off the system. Why would I do this? Because I can and I like to be lazy.

Yes, and as I already said before you can do just that under our current money-based system, so this doesn't really belong here.
In a "welfare state", you can fool the social security, claim your back hurts, stop working at 30 and get 40 years of free health-care, food, shelter, etc. True example.
Under a more liberal system, you can live and leech your relatives and NGOs like these neighbors who squatted a land, built a small house and garden/farm, got additional food aid and money from charity for decades and afforded to get the latest gadgets and get their granddaughter into med school. I'd say they live more comfy than me.

The point is, leeches have always existed, still exist and will probably always exist, no matter what. But it doesn't mean we can't organize society in such a way that productive work is encouraged and laziness is frowned upon or even punished.

revolution wrote:
The people working hard to give me free things get resentful and decide to stop giving me stuff. I didn't earn it so I don't deserve it.

Exactly!
Production and consumption should absolutely be accounted for for many reasons, such as the optimization of production volume through the use of statistics, but also for singling out people leeching society. They can work as slow as they can, but ultimately, they can't show products they didn't produce and fool energy accounting.
Leeches could be examined by physicians and psychologists who would report any physical or mental disability. A list of people who are perfectly healthy but not working could be made public just for the heck of it. They'd be humiliated by everyone around them, ostracized or permanently banned and would die of hunger, alone and hated by every human soul. So much for their ego! How about that ha?

revolution wrote:
Everyone just does what they want because they like it? Well everyone likes to be lazy and watch TV.

It's the consumerist society that has made us so vain. But there have always been and are still many people who work their asses off for meager salaries and almost no increases ever!
If the only thing someone lives for is slacking off on the couch watching TV 16/24h, then he really has a sad, empty and pathetic live. There must be something (a hobby for #$@& sake!) that he can do to benefit society. Maybe he likes painting, playing music, making hand-crafted ships in bottles, gardening, etc.

revolution wrote:
Not enough people enjoy tilling endless fields for corn so very few do it and the world no longer has enough corn to eat.

True but as far as I know in the hunter-gatherer societies of the past, none profited from what they were doing and they didn't particularly enjoy it, but they still did it because they knew it was useful and it allowed them to feed their tribe/village.
The difference with the hunter-gatherer society is that ours has machines that make painful back-breaking work much easier and that we can also build vertical farms inside our cities and do a much more pleasant work.
Also have you ever heard financially struggling farmers? They are all attached to their lands, never want to move and do what they do because it's what they like and want to do. Most are heartbroken when their business is not profitable anymore and cannot survive (thanks to a money-based system) and they have to sell the farm and the animals they've been raising for years.

People doing a hard/dangerous work could have reduced working hours compared to the rest (there are such policies already). Every sector/industry/profession would have its own temporary organization that unanimously sets rules and regulations.

revolution wrote:
I make/grow just enough for me. Forget about everyone else. Without the incentive to do the things that are needed, people would do the things they enjoy, but people don't enjoy doing the things that are needed.

Yeah, so you'd be so selfish as to stop the tractor-hitch, picker or combine after 1 meter when you can just as well continue for another 99 meters without much more effort? You're sweating already, let it be for something more significant than your favorite centiare.
Why do people volunteer as firefighters? It's relatively difficult and quite dangerous and can be fatal. Isn't that worse than difficult and painful? And they still do it.

revolution wrote:
Who cleans the toilets?

After the Japanese made their first robot clerk, I'm waiting for the first robot shit remover! And if they don't make it, maybe the Chinese will...
Alternatively, I'd say everyone could do their own little share of toilet cleaning no matter what. It'll be a public duty like sidewalk cleaning is in some countries. I've never heard anyone complaining even though they still have to do it when the sidewalks are covered with mud, dog shit, half-eaten sandwiches, sticky chewing gum or used condoms.
Post 11 Jul 2010, 20:24
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
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Location: Sol. Earth. Europe. Romania. Bucuresti
bogdanontanu
revolution wrote:
That is false.

Yes and NO. It was supposed to make you get the point.
More exactly greed is generated by desire, more exactly by desires that are not fullfilled, more exactly by desires that are basic needs that are not fullfilled.

And esires are basically thoughts goone badly because you did not have a master in your childhood.

I never had them.

To understand I will give you an example: A man sufferst from hunger for a semnificative period of his life. Deep hunger, so deep that his life is in real danger. Such a man can and ussually will feel a desire for food later in his life, a compulsory desire that under certain conditions can make him suffer from morbid obesity.

In romania we have had an example those days: a man had over 300+kilos. He gained 200 kilograms over insecurity for his job / money stabilty in time. Then he lost his job and he instantly gained extra 100kg in a short time.

He needed surgical intervention and psihological council in order to "control" his desire for food. He fights it but I do predict that if his insecurity about money/job remains then obesity will return (and the desire)

He is not rich, he has a low income but he eats in order to fullfill his basic need for stability.

The reason why he is poor and insecure is MONEY and the ability of other people to have more MONEY and keep many people in a state of uncerainty in a capitalistic organization.

It is "generally belived" in the western world that this "need and uncertainty" is an incentive to make you get off your couch and work hard and give something back to the society in exchange for money but his is FALSE.

For a very few and lucky people it does work like this. But for many it is just stress.

For an other minority it is an incentive to crimes.

Money and accumulation and property are the basic reason why "crimes do pay" and are worthy to perform.

Quote:
Greed is inherent in a person.


No it is not.

I observed many people that had all they need and they never become greedy. Greed is just a symptom of a disease named: lack of fullfillment... or an abuse in your childhood.

Give the child all he really needs in an environment of equality and greed will never occur.

In fact rich parents know this as a problem.

They offten force their childrens to solve artificially generated problems in order to "harden" then for a life in the jungle of capitalism (where greed is perceived as beneficial). They threaten with not giving them any money UNLESS they generate 1.000.000 euro over a period of one year by themself given a minimal initial capital (for example)

Desires can be eliminated and in fact THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF EVOLUTION.

The fact that desire are part of human "nature" is a myth.

They are a part of animals and not of humans.

Desires are a disease that we must raise over and eradicate in order to evolve and it can be doen with ease BUT we continue to maintain an environment that exacerbates them and generates crimes and keep our race from evolution.

They occur only because we have unsolved problems in our society and environment that affect childrens dramatically when they are sensible.

And in fact it is in the best intrest of the rulling class for desires and greed to occur because then they can claim that they can keep the extreme accidents generated by greed at bay with police and army and LAW and Order.

Quote:

It can be expressed by a desire for money, or indeed anything else that is considered of value to that person.


Yes but practical desires have an end once you obtain your target...

At that moment you have a small GAP of relaxation when you can detect that desires are not really helpfull and you should drop them... it rarely happens but sometimes it does because of the temporary happiness gained once you obtained the target of your desire... and right there you have a small chanche of evolution.

On the other side desire for money is of the essence because you just increase some numbers in a bank account and there is NO END to this increment.

You are never faced with your enlarged body as it happens when you eat out of control... the number just grows in an account.

If you accumulated goods (food, stone, computers, lumber) there would be a physical limt to it... and you will need to make increasing efforts to prevent your goods from beeing stolen and noticed by others.

And you would have a chanche to see that what ever you do you will neevr need 100 tons of concrete in this life time

And you could notice that IF you store them away you are in fact preventing other people from having even 10kilos of concrete for their house stair steps...

Money makes this illusion of not doing something wrong work.


Quote:
Have you never heard of a greedy eater?


Yes but as I have said above there is always a reason either in an abuse in the childhood OR in an abuse by the capitalistic system during the adulthood life...

For example very rich people rarely suffer from it because they feel relatively "secure" (unless they have problems with love) Smile)

_________________
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger,
more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage --
to move in the opposite direction."
Post 11 Jul 2010, 21:20
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Quote:

If you accumulated goods (food, stone, computers, lumber) there would be a physical limt to it... and you will need to make increasing efforts to prevent your goods from beeing stolen and noticed by others.

And you would have a chanche to see that what ever you do you will neevr need 100 tons of concrete in this life time

And you could notice that IF you store them away you are in fact preventing other people from having even 10kilos of concrete for their house stair steps...

Money makes this illusion of not doing something wrong work.

very good point here...!!
money create more layers of illusion inside this temporarily human life span.. it became like a "storage item/product" instead of a tool that facilitate exchange.

Quote:

On the other side desire for money is of the essence because you just increase some numbers in a bank account and there is NO END to this increment.

and this promotes greed...

if we cut off the money, we cut off one of the "path" to let/promote/persuade/influence others into greedy beast.
Post 11 Jul 2010, 21:49
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
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bogdanontanu
Tyler wrote:
> comunity MUST be eliminated and each huma will be a GOD himself
Wait, this is the whole point behind capitalism, and the opposite of communism. In capitalism, the individual has the power to be their own god.


Not exactly. No even in the original capitalism by Adam Smith.

Yes you can produce your self objects but unless you sel them to others you will not have money to pay your taxes.

Capitalism does not promote one man that does it all.

Instead it promotes that you do something good and trade its for money and with this you can buy the other things that you "must" need fro the trade system to work. And money is needed for this.

Unfortunately the money system also allows for exploitation and speculation and makes crimes worthy and you end up with a police state trying to limit this but failing for ever under greed tricks.

Attempts to completly sepparate from the state / goverment / comunity are and have been severely punished by capitalistic governments (and comunists also)

Quote:

They can sit around and do nothing all day, and live with less, or they can work hard, and earn what they want.


If you eat more then somebody else does eat less.

Everybody should eat exactly the same if the level of food is less than needed by a human body but not more than what is needed if we have enought for everybody.

Quote:

They power behind the free market model is that it allows, by unregulation, those with the determination to have whatever they want, to be able to get it.


That means the freedom to kill or enslave others by monetary constraints.

Quote:

But in communism, you age force d to support thse to lazy to support them selves, and to be of the same level as them.


I lived in both capitalism and communism and I can say that you are wrong.

I do NOT favour comunism because it is comunity oriented and it was never implemented corectly it was just a kind of dictatorship and half socialism implementation (for example they allowed one personal property and family to exist... practically making it a small scale capitalism)

Basically nobody ever considered not working in a decent manner in communism. This is a myth spoken in capitalism because here people can not understand why to work if there is no "incentive".

But trust me people DID WORK with no "incentive" and did liked it and usually you are not frustrated if somebody works less because you understand his equal value as a human beeing.


The real problem was that the implementation was not corect and allowed some people to accumulate and those people wanted communism to fail for them to be able to have much more.

And then it was what revolution noted: seeing that they can not accumulate as they wish and crime does not pay and they are in danger to be overun by inteligent people that created by passion... the bad people shifted towards hierarchihal power structures and parasitated those and generated bad global decissions that crashed the "perfectly working" but incorectly implmented "comunism"

I whitnesed this with my own eyes.

A little bit of control over the greed for power would have soved all problems but unfortunately it was not implemented.

The problem was that people should have been equal in power also and fast rotation in power should have been implemented in order to prohibit power accumulation.

And of course material accumulation (not even ONE personal house) should have NOT been allowed... and family should have been not allowed. But of course this was not possible because it was in fact a dictatorship with only some elements of socialism / comunism and without real freedom.

Anyway those elements removed greed dramatically and many humans did evolve incredibly (but not sustainable because it was imposed)

Remember I do not promote communism.

I propose another social organization where the personal beeing is in the center of right and comunity is banned and considered bad.

Comunity is acceptable for a very limited time when needed but banned otherwise.

And every improvement MUST be for each and every persome equaly. Be it in material or conceptual or power areas. And no central Goverment to be allowed.

Hence not communism but also not capitalism... evolution for individuals.

Quote:

It forces everyone to be equal to the lowest common denominator, because no one can have more than anyone else.


In prectice this "forced" was:
1) state gives everybody a house for yourself no loans to make, no rent
2) with you monthly income you can pay everything you ever need with 1/10 from your income
3) everybody has his own car
4) everybody has free medical care
5) everybody has free education up to University excelence level
6) Everybody has a job and Nobody can loose his job
7) You can do whatever you want a home after a relaxed every day of work (i created my own computer with hand wires and LSI chips and made my own 8bits OS for it and studied yoga and spirtual evolution)

If it was not for the limitation of freedom of speech and travel abroad and the limitation to criticism to the dictatorship and system (not even to improve it) it was preety cool

Anyway I have fighted against it... because I observed the system's problems

And I also observe the problems of capitalism even if I do live pretty well in capitalism also.

And it was not the "lowest common denominator". It was what was corectly sustainable for everybody from a material point of view but you are free to improve it for everybody (including you) if you think you can and nobody stops you from developping yourself mentally, conceptually or spiritually.

You were not forced to be the same as everybody just not exploit them.

You just can not have more material / money things than others and explot them based on this but this does not LIMIT your true nature.

Quote:

How can you argue that the government holding you back from your potential makes you god of yourself?


The goverment was no supposed to keep you back from doing good things. The limitations (the few that have been corectky implemented) simply eliminated greed and exploatation of people by other people. (unfortunately not completely)

But you could develop yourself mentally, conceptually and spiritually as much as you wanted... and you HAD NO MATERIAL PROBLEMS to make you frustrated and violent... unless you wanted to have 10 houses and force others to die of hunger... and this does happen today in Romania ...

_________________
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger,
more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage --
to move in the opposite direction."


Last edited by bogdanontanu on 11 Jul 2010, 22:28; edited 3 times in total
Post 11 Jul 2010, 22:01
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bogdanontanu



Joined: 07 Jan 2004
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bogdanontanu
sleepsleep wrote:

if we cut off the money, we cut off one of the "path" to let/promote/persuade/influence others into greedy beast.


You do not need to cut money.

You need to cut the ability to have more money per month than others and the ability to accumulate and transfer the accumulation by inheritance or trade or other means to other people and remove the ability to have property (instead have a guaratee of use for lifetime).

You need to ban comunity and family and this is hard.

And you need to deliver all improvements to all individuals equaly.

You need to ban central goverment and any form or hierarchical power structures.

A form of very temporay law and enforcement system must exist at start (and this is dangerouse for a few generations and must be surveyed)

A form of money will continue to exist for monthly equal allowance in order to statistically account for what people prefer to use it for from a pool of available goods... and adapt the system to balance the production ...

Until enerybody can create whatever they want by thenself for ever and the system is fully de-centralized.

Then money is history, capitalism is history, communism is history and evolution did happen for the very first time on this planet.

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It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage --
to move in the opposite direction."
Post 11 Jul 2010, 22:09
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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revolution
My claim: Money gives freedom.

My reasoning:

Without money we would be forced into a society where we have to do certain things or become under intense pressure from peers. This would be stressful, we all would have responsibility to watch others to make sure they are conforming. Others watching us to make sure we are conforming. Requiring very strict and inflexible rules for everyone to follow else the system would breakdown and society structure fails.

With money everyone can do as much as they want to with rewards relative to the efforts. Someone wants a lot then they work a lot. Someone wants little then they work little. We have no need to watch others, if they wanna be lazy then, fine, be lazy and starve. No one needs to watch us, if we wanna be lazy then it doesn't affect them so they don't care.

Money provides the freedom to do as you want. Not what some bureaucrat in some windowless office tells you to do.

But freedom does not mean perfection. It is just freedom of choice to seek what we choose. Some people choose bad things, but at least they have freedom to choose those things. Some people choose good things, and the unbiased-uncompassionate money allowed them to choose that.
Post 12 Jul 2010, 00:15
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Quote:

if they wanna be lazy then, fine, be lazy and starve. No one needs to watch us, if we wanna be lazy then it doesn't affect them so they don't care.

i saw such approach in school, (wife of a friend of mine was a primary school teacher)... so, they put those who they regards as "bad student" into the last class, those bright student in "A" class.

and obviously, they lose HOPE on those "bad student", just teach according to syllabus, let them finish and let them go away...

seldom genuine intention came from others to help them...

and "do we want such system?"
it is against humanity.
Post 12 Jul 2010, 08:32
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revolution
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revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
it is against humanity.
Well it might be against the idealistic view of humanity. But in reality it is not against the nature of our existence, survival of the fittest and all that stuff. We are here because of such non-idealistic processes.
Post 12 Jul 2010, 09:10
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edfed



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edfed
Quote:
But in reality it is not against the nature

true, exactlly like code, we select the best code to do something, it is not elitism, it is the goal of nature, to be ok.

money is the bit of human energy.
energy is money, money is energy.
food is energy is money.
Post 12 Jul 2010, 17:04
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Quote:

survival of the fittest and all that stuff.

the floating of some human is because of the drowned of most people, (we want something like that?)
Post 18 Jul 2010, 20:06
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revolution
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revolution
sleepsleep wrote:
the floating of some human is because of the drowned of most people, (we want something like that?)
Well okay, there is always a bad side to everything. But it is not about what we want, it is more about what actually happens. The things that happen are not always what we wanted or intended to happen, but they will happen anyway. Facts of life. Some people suffer, while others luxuriate, just try not to be the one that suffers I guess.
Post 19 Jul 2010, 00:34
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Quote:

Well okay, there is always a bad side to everything.

ok, yin yang,,,

Quote:

But it is not about what we want, it is more about what actually happens.

yeah, it is happening, but "could we change it" ?

Quote:

The things that happen are not always what we wanted or intended to happen, but they will happen anyway.

i know, we just plan, but we are not the only one who decide.

Quote:

Facts of life. Some people suffer, while others luxuriate, just try not to be the one that suffers I guess.

i would say, try to let those who suffer, suffer less..
and those who live in luxurious please sacrifice a bit here and there willingly.

they are just exactly like us (when they are babies, kids),,, u see the picture? just like us,,,
Post 19 Jul 2010, 03:06
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep
Post 18 Apr 2011, 18:02
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