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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand
FAMOS Forum
There has been a 'significant' number of downloads of FAMOS from the Easy-Share site now (and I don't know how many more from www.famos.zoomshare.com because it doesn't tell me).

Thanks to everyone who has tried FAMOS, and especially to all those who have given feedback.


Summary of the latest versions available:

FD image ver 1.14 'NZ panorama' (with fasm-based IDE):
http://w14.easy-share.com/1702201438.html
(left-click.... 767,136 bytes)

CD image ver 1.14 'NZ panorama' (with fasm-based IDE):
http://famos.zoomshare.com/files/FAMOS14C.ZIP
(right-click, Save as .... 930,286 bytes)


Many of you seem to prefer to run FAMOS in various emulators, rather than by booting it "for real". From what I've heard so far, the FD and CD versions both run OK under Virtual PC, DOSBox and Bochs. Personally I always boot it for real (so I know what the CPU is doing at all times). BTW, it has never harmed or in any way affected Windows or any 'other' OS on any of my (several) PC's.

I will post all information and updates about FAMOS on this thread, and I hope it will become an interactive forum for FAMOS issues Smile

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FAMOS - the first memory operating system
Post 26 Nov 2008, 22:34
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Mac2004



Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 314
Re: FAMOS Forum

neville wrote:

Personally I always boot it for real (so I know what the CPU is doing at all times).



Yes, I agree. Using real pc's instead of emulator(s) gives more reliable picture how the os is working.
Although several pc's should be used for testing before any reliable results can be achieved.

regards,
Mac2004
Post 27 Nov 2008, 04:58
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand
www.famos.zoomshare.com
Introducing ... www.famos.zoomshare.com

This free website hosts files up to a total of 250MB, with a maximum of 25MB per file. It seems to have a reasonable download bandwidth too.

So I'm using it to host extra content items which can be included on your FAMOS boot CD's.
The following items are currently available by going to the site and clicking on 'Links', or clicking the links below:

1. Watkin Audio+Info (WAI) items, sampled at 48kHz 16-bit stereo (play via USB speakers using Watkin Audio Player):
www.famos.zoomshare.com/files/You_Must_Be_Crazy.WAI

www.famos.zoomshare.com/files/Bohemian_Dance.WAI

2. Watkin Movie/Video (WMV) items (view using FAMOS Movie Player)
www.famos.zoomshare.com/files/WTC_South_Tower_Collapse.WMV

www.famos.zoomshare.com/files/WTC_Building_7_Demolition.WMV


There are also some screenshots, mainly of the fasm-based FAMOS IDE, which can be viewed on the site by clicking on 'Photos', or clicking the links below:

FAMOS GUI Ver 1.14 ('NZ panorama'):
http://famos.zoomshare.com/album/FAMOS%201-114/images/6f9bc86b7bb3cbac49ad22f925e62c42_12266265360/:album

FAMOS Media Access Utility ver 1.1
http://famos.zoomshare.com/album/FAMOS%201-114/images/48dd9507adfc78b86019334a4138f5ef_12266266590/:album



FAMOS IDE Text Editor (with 'Decimal Clock' Source)
http://famos.zoomshare.com/album/FAMOS%201-114/images/ff462a3ec6fe3518c83e463d9ea54057_12266267650/:album


FAMOS IDE Text Editor (showing successful fasm assembly of 'Decimal Clock')
http://famos.zoomshare.com/album/FAMOS%201-114/images/2169fc3cbfc1d79c7224e3b52654d7a7_12266268500/:album


FAMOS IDE Memory Editor (showing assembled 'Decimal Clock' code)
http://famos.zoomshare.com/album/FAMOS%201-114/images/07da58458931d3da9c879832e884ce5f_12266269410/:album


Decimal Clock running (showing the time as 6.07.85)
http://famos.zoomshare.com/album/FAMOS%201-114/images/ba5cc16ec1189acfb0b457bd8c451590_12266270260/:album

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FAMOS - the first memory operating system
Post 27 Nov 2008, 19:23
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand
Four-Handed 500 not pre-loaded in version 1.14C
The many classic games featured on FAMOS (which on boot-up are already IN MEMORY and ready to run with NO disk accesses) are quite popular, especially Pacman, Snake and good old Tetris.

Because booting "for real" from a floppy disk is so slow, in version 1.11F the card game Four-Handed 500 was NOT preloaded in to memory on boot-up, but could still be loaded "manually" using Media Access after boot-up. Booting for real from CD is much quicker of course, so in version 1.11C Four-Handed 500 IS preloaded in to memory on boot-up.

Unfortunately, this was NOT done in version 1.14C, so it must be loaded manually from the CD using Media Access after boot-up (sorry!).


Playing 500:

You are always South; your partner is always North.
Unfortunately North can be a bit of an idiot, so you have to make allowances! Especially if North is bidding "No Trumps"...
Your opponents West and East are both quite good players, especially East.

And yes, there is one small issue with 500: Do not "Play again" because it will crash. Play only 1 game at a time, then exit and restart. It's a silly bug which I haven't yet investigated, and isn't a high priority. If you forget, pressing PrtScr should restart the GUI...

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FAMOS - the first memory operating system
Post 28 Nov 2008, 23:39
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14583
Location: Planet Dirt
Re: Four-Handed 500 not pre-loaded in version 1.14C

neville wrote:
Because booting "for real" from a floppy disk is so slow, in version 1.11F the card game Four-Handed 500 was NOT preloaded in to memory on boot-up, but could still be loaded "manually" using Media Access after boot-up. Booting for real from CD is much quicker of course, so in version 1.11C Four-Handed 500 IS preloaded in to memory on boot-up.

Unfortunately, this was NOT done in version 1.14C, so it must be loaded manually from the CD using Media Access after boot-up (sorry!).

It seems to me that your "memory OS" is starting to tun into a "disk OS". Only loading things when they are needed is much better use of memory IMO. Hey I just thought of a better name for your OS, how about FADOS! FAsm Disk OS Razz
Post 29 Nov 2008, 01:41
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand
Re: Four-Handed 500 not pre-loaded in version 1.14C

revolution wrote:
It seems to me that your "memory OS" is starting to tun into a "disk OS".

Never! Wink FAMOS is definitely not becoming anything but a true Memory OS. How an OS initially boots is of course irrelevant. As a true MOS, the FAMOS kernel is independent of all disk (mass) storage technologies. All PMM-compliant rotating media can be powered down after boot-up, on the assumption that everything is in memory.

FAMOS does not presume that memory is in short supply; in fact it deliberately and reasonably assumes there is an abundance of memory, but it also doesn't squander memory - it just uses it sensibly and IMO very elegantly and efficiently. All the FAMOS games, including 500, require less than 0.1% of the memory on today's average PC.

One day MOS's will be accepted and understood, but maybe not until the last mechanical disk has turned through its last revolution Wink

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FAMOS - the first memory operating system
Post 29 Nov 2008, 08:59
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14583
Location: Planet Dirt
Once the world shifts to SSDs, and then to NVRAMs then all OSes will be memory OSes by default! Razz
Post 29 Nov 2008, 13:52
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand

revolution wrote:
Once the world shifts to SSDs, and then to NVRAMs then all OSes will be memory OSes by default! Razz

Um, actually no they won't! But I guess you really knew that. Wink

For the record, a memory OS has to be designed as such; no OS will ever be a memory OS "by default".

As explained in the FAMOS documentation, I'm looking forward to the day when computers will have all non-volatile main memory - because then the real MOS('s) will shine...

And wouldn't it be nice if we could read/write our electronic mass storage devices with a byte-level random access method, rather than by "sector"?

It will of course also be possible for existing DOS's to continue as they do now, blissfully ignorant of the fact that their "disks" are actually NVRAM.

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Post 29 Nov 2008, 20:09
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4155
Location: Thank you :D

Quote:

And wouldn't it be nice if we could read/write our electronic mass storage devices with a byte-level random access method, rather than by "sector"?


it is still the case.
i can change any byte inside a bios compatible chs volume.
including the usb drives uder win98 v86 dos.

the method to access a non volatille hard disk is to read 512 bytes.
modify the byte or bit you want to modify, and write back 512 bytes.

or, as you say proudlly, you use your famos to preload the requested file in ram, play with as long as you want, and save it on a hard drive, then, if you save your OS on a drive, it is not a memory operating system, but a disk operating system.
but better than old dos, because you have all in ram, it is faster...
but what about the real use of memory, and the performances?
can you close an application, free its ram, and give it to an other applications?
Post 30 Nov 2008, 10:11
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand

Quote:
i can change any byte inside a bios compatible chs volume.


Yes, so can I by writing back the sector as you say. I can also do it for an EDD-compatible drive accessed by absolute or partition-relative sector numbers (so-called "logical block addressing").
But what I meant was, wouldn't it be nice if we had hardware-based random byte-level access instead of doing it in software. I admit some technologies like flash must be accessed on a block basis, but even in those cases hardware emulation could still be provided to give a consistent random access interface.


Quote:
if you save your OS on a drive, it is not a memory operating system, but a disk operating system.


lol. Saving a MOS on a disk doesn't make it a DOS, and loading a DOS into memory doesn't make it a MOS Laughing


Quote:
but what about the real use of memory, and the performances?
can you close an application, free its ram, and give it to an other applications?


Yes I can, with some temporary restrictions in the current version of FAMOS, as explained in "On-Line Help". You could too, if you tried it Wink

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FAMOS - the first memory operating system
Post 30 Nov 2008, 22:47
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa

Neville wrote:

There has been a 'significant' number of downloads of FAMOS

Though I knew the answer, (to the first question of the QUIZ) http://www.watkintechnology.com/, I deliberately inserted the erroneous response "FAMOS", to learn what would happen. Nothing good, I am sorry to write. I received the error message, informing me of my error, then, I pressed ESC, to exit, and was taken to outer space......
After rebooting my computer, I looked at the user interface somewhat more critically: here are some thoughts.
1. The first screen is simply too busy. Panorama of Wellington Harbor is beautiful, and I like it, hope you keep it. Ditto for the time/date, well done. What I found troublesome was the requirement to select from about ten items. I believe that a cleaner interface can be devised... The text at the bottom of the screen is moving so fast, I cannot read it. Is there a simple way for the user to slow it down?
2. I looked for, but did not find, the source code, so that I could make some changes to the user interface, and send my version to you.
3. The menu process is opaque. In other words, I choose, let's say item number 9. OK, then, a new screen is presented. If I want to see what I have already selected, i.e. item 9, then, I must AGAIN press nine. Hmm. This appears to be redundant. Sometimes, Neville, you exit by means of "ESC", and sometimes by "quit". Hmm. Would be easier, in my opinion, for the user, to employ a single method to exit a routine....
4. Real world application: here is the conundrum, friend: You have put in a lot of effort and time, to develop an OS for which you include things like Tetris, and other games. But, what one really wants to see, from a well designed OS, is an application in the real world, and here I am thinking of your own expertise with solar energy, something like a heliostat controller, or a supervisor for solar water heating from rooftop panels. I am sure that both applications could be done with computers less expensive than a desktop computer, but there is an advantage in developing an application for FAMOS, which is based on solving a real world problem, and not simply playing games--mental contests which admittedly could require considerably more computing horsepower than any solar energy application from the "real" world.
Smile
Post 10 Dec 2008, 12:43
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tom tobias



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 1320
Location: usa

edfed wrote:
...but what about the real use of memory, and the performances? can you close an application, free its ram, and give it to an other applications?


Yup. That's a brilliant question. Theoretically, the answer is "yes", however, accomplishing this feat may require so much cpu time, even offloading the bulk of the effort to the dma controller, that the operating system performance would be degraded. Application closes. Memory freed. But, where is that memory located???... OOPS. It is in the middle of the memory. Ah, so need to move every application above the one just finished, down to release the memory at the top, for the next application. That's a lot of churning. What sort of real world applications would benefit from such a capability? Hospitals, factories, and office building infrastructure supervisors do not need such a glamorous capability. FAMOS best applications are those situations for which no hard drive is available. Typically, such situations do not include rapidly changing, new circumstances. As a solar energy controller, for example, suppose a wind storm approached and the entire solar panel array needed protection from the wind by reclining under solenoid direction. FAMOS could control this "NEW", and unanticipated, i.e. unpredictable, task, in addition to its normal duties (monitoring the output of the solar array, and changing the inclination/axis daily to maximize solar exposure), without need to first free the memory used by the ordinary tasks, simply because of the modest size of the memory needed to run the solenoid activation code.

This requirement is of far greater importance in Internet applications with a desk top computer.....Is that a proposed FAMOS application?
Smile
Post 10 Dec 2008, 13:08
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edfed



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 4155
Location: Thank you :D
what is a memory operating system?
i presume shell is a sort of memory operating system because it don't use any drive for main application, but i can reboot with a file, a drive, or restart an application without reading back on the disk.
Post 10 Dec 2008, 15:27
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand
tom tobias wrote:
[quite a lot] thanks for the bouquets and for the brickbats Wink ; actually it's very constructive criticism, I appreciate it.
First, about the Quiz. Sorry, no excuses but I intended to remove it from ver 1.14 but my change control system failed Embarassed . It displays the FAMOS "header" graphic at the top of the screen which it expects to be a 16-colour bitmap, but is incompatible with version 1.14 because the header is replaced with the 256-colour "panorama" images. Some of the questions are also "out of date" and need updating. It is on my TO DO list. It works fine in ver 1.11 (non-panorama). BTW the correct answer to Qu 1 is FA-MOS (in upper-case, with the hyphen).
Now your other points:
GUI screen is too busy: Accepted. I guess I just want the user to know my OS is alive and kicking when the GUI appears!
Select from 10 items: not sure what you mean here
text moving fast: this is the Rotating Message utility. Can be slowed or stopped. Select Item 3 on page 1 (assuming view = [all]). This just provides some initial help text, but granted: not very helpful if you can't read it Embarassed
Source code: sorry, haven't released it yet, but there is a working IDE in ver 1.14 ...
Menu process: this is akin to "double-clicking". The first click "selects" and simultaneously reveals lots of information about your selection. See "Online Help" for details (Item 1 on page 1). I actually like this aspect of my design... BTW you can also select using the cursor/enter keys in ver 1.14
Esc/Quit: its usually one or the other, or both! Should an OS dictate how applications look and feel? Yes, some do...
Real World apps: I agree. There is a real-world app on the boot medium (FD or CD), but you need an old Centronics parallel port to use it - its an Arbitrary Function Generator (Media Access - item 0, page 3). I've developed other real-world apps which all requires extra hardware interfaces (e.g. data loggers) so haven't included them Same applies to PV array controllers...
Releasing memory etc: Yes, but shifting memory around isn't so slow because accessing memory is literally 1,000,000 times faster than accessing a disk

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FAMOS - the first memory operating system
Post 10 Dec 2008, 21:16
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand

edfed wrote:
what is a memory operating system?


Extract from FAMOS Programming Manual (supplied with ver 1.14+)

Code:
; The defining features of MEMORY operating systems, and FAMOS in particular,
; are:
;   - all operating system code and data are permanently memory-resident
;   - the kernel assumes that all software and data accessible to the user
;     via the GUI is also memory-resident. In FAMOS, the kernel is also known
;     as the "FAMOS Executive".
;   - the kernel maintains a database of all code and data items in memory
;     (called the Memory Contents Database or "MCD" in FAMOS)
;   - the kernel contains no mass storage device software and is therefore
;     independent of all mass storage technologies (magnetic disks, optical
;     disks, flash memory "drives" etc.)
;   - mass storage devices are used ONLY for mass storage purposes
;     (i.e. for long-term non-volatile storage of software and data)
;   - all mass storage access is handled by utility software externel to and
;     independent of the OS kernel
;     (called the Media Access utility in FAMOS)
;
; An important consequence of these features is that memory OS's can NOT use
; "virtual" memory (mass storage emulating memory). They may use paged memory
; however. In other words, memory OS's must "live within" their available
; memory.


So its like everything is a TSR, sitting in memory already. Disks are not "required" (except as boot devices for now).
There is no "current" drive, FAMOS actually knows nothing of disks. Its all in Media Access, a non-kernel utility app.
(some more info on the website www.fa-mos.com but its not flash, I know. Also "The FAMOS Dream" in FAMOS and "FAMOS Last Words" on the FD/CD)

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Post 10 Dec 2008, 21:19
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand
Announcing the FAMOS Flight Simulator
Announcing the FAMOS Flight Simulator (beta version) - included with FAMOS Public Release version 1.15 (January 2009).


Yes, a flight simulator! Seems stable, but not yet extensively tested.
I also plan to include a terrain/scenery editor in a future version.


Also new in this version is FARTED - the FAMOS Resident Text EDitor, a stand-alone version of the FIDE editor, for use as a general text editor.


Oh, and the Rotating Message utility is now NOT running on boot-up. Of course its still in memory, but must be started manually. (Makes the GUI look less "busy").


For your convenience and viewing pleasure I've managed to squeeze the image archive of FAMOS ver 1.15 to under 700Kb so I can upload it here!However the FAMOS Quiz and FAMOS Communications R18 had to be sacrificed!


I'm going to be away for a few days now, so I look forward to lots of feedback from all the volunteer beta testers out there when I get back Smile


Description: FAMOS Version 1.15 (January 26, 2009)
Download
Filename: FAMOS15F.ZIP
Filesize: 659.21 KB
Downloaded: 33 Time(s)


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Post 26 Jan 2009, 09:44
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neville



Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 501
Location: New Zealand
and here's a little graphic from the FAMOS Flight Smulator...


Description: FAMOS Flight Simulator
Filesize: 7.58 KB
Viewed: 519 Time(s)

fsim2.PNG



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Post 26 Jan 2009, 09:51
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sinsi



Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 670
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OK kiwi let's have a look. By 'memory OS' you load everything and then...what?

FARTED...zomg lol r u 12 asl

testing...will get back to you when it's not australia day...
question: what is nz's national day? I only know aus's, us's and france's Sad
Post 26 Jan 2009, 10:13
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14583
Location: Planet Dirt

sinsi wrote:
question: what is nz's national day? I only know aus's, us's and france's Sad

I'm glad you asked because I just love finding opportunities to point people to my website. I have all the info about national holidays, check it out! Hehe, I just can't help myself
Post 26 Jan 2009, 10:42
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sinsi



Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 670
Location: Adelaide
I go to your website all the time, it's fucking brilliant. I wanted neville to have another reason (!) to boast...heh heh

[heh]Hehe, I just can't help myself[/heh]moi aussi
Post 26 Jan 2009, 10:48
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