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Index > MenuetOS > how to install menuetos

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Ali.Z



Joined: 08 Jan 2018
Posts: 365
Ali.Z
menuetos - 32bit file format image

file was renamed to iso, emulator vmware.

used default installation, os type OTHER -> OTHER 32bit ... but failed with message "cant find os".

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Post 29 Jul 2018, 12:31
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Ville



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 230
Ville
Have you tried VirtualBox ? It can easily run both 32bit and 64bit Menuet versions. You can also find some additional information at the Menuet documentation page: http://menuetos.net/docs.htm
Post 29 Jul 2018, 18:38
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Ali.Z



Joined: 08 Jan 2018
Posts: 365
Ali.Z
no luck, tried a lot.

anyhow, thanks.
Post 31 Jul 2018, 09:53
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Ali.Z



Joined: 08 Jan 2018
Posts: 365
Ali.Z
ville, it worked.

but not installable on every resolution, i like it ... not sure why you left x86 development and went targeting 64-bit architecture.

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Post 21 Jan 2019, 02:22
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Ville



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 230
Ville
Why I concentrate on 64bit development ? Well, almost all computers sold today are 64bit. Another reason for selecting closed source, atleast for now, is the peace of mind that follows, thats perhaps something thats hard for some people to understand.
Post 22 Jan 2019, 09:23
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Ville



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 230
Ville
And like always, if somebody wants to be part of Menuet development, then just send me a message.
Post 25 Jan 2019, 06:42
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Hugh-Aguilar



Joined: 26 May 2020
Posts: 13
Hugh-Aguilar
Ville wrote:
Why I concentrate on 64bit development ? Well, almost all computers sold today are 64bit. Another reason for selecting closed source, atleast for now, is the peace of mind that follows, thats perhaps something thats hard for some people to understand.

Was Kolibri a "friendly fork," or did they just take your code and call it their own? I notice that they are 32-bit, presumably because your 64-bit Menuet is closed-source so they can't take it, and they can't write their own.

I understand your "peace of mind" in regard to hanging onto your source-code. Smile

I'm still interested in writing that Forth system.

* Windows is a problem because the anti-virus systems typically red-flag programs, and in most cases it is necessary for the programmer to pay for a certificate so his program won't get red-flagged. This is a lot like extortion. Evil or Very Mad

* Linux is a problem because most users only download open-source GCC programs. I have never heard of closed-source at all, except for Delphi that was a flop. Sad

* Menuet burbles to the surface as a possible choice. Shocked

What I'm thinking now, is to call my program: SafetyForth.
The idea is that the user can only program in Forth but can not write primitives in assembly-language (most Forth system include an assembler that generates machine-code at run-time that can be executed in that same run-time, which is why Forth is often used for malware).
The user's Forth code will not be able to access memory outside of the allocated data memory (because @ and ! that fetch and store will check every address to make sure it is valid). Also, EXECUTE checks every address to make sure it is valid, so machine-code embedded in a string can't be executed.

So, SafetyForth can't be used for malware. Also, users can distribute their code as a binary-overlay without providing source-code. The vast Menuet user-base can download this code and run it without worry that it is malware, and the programmers can distribute their programs closed-source without worry that it will show up as some kid's science-fair project.

Do you think that SafetyForth would have an appeal, and would fit in with the Menuet culture?

Note that SafetyForth is ITC (Indirect-Threaded-Code) so the programs are going to be slower than Menuet programs written in FASM. SafetyForth is for lightweight programs that don't need a lot of speed --- it should be significantly faster than Python, and Python is popular in Linux despite being painfully slow --- modern 64-bit computers are extremely fast, so it should be fast enough for quite a lot of applications (including 1980s-style two-dimensional games such as MsPacman and Centipede etc.).

Menuet purists may say that all Menuet programs should be written in FASM, even if it is a simple data-format conversion program that could be written in Python on Linux in an hour or two, and nevermind if it takes a week or two to write.
Maybe so!
How many Menuet purists are there? I'm guessing, not many...

I forgot about the idea of distributing a Forth system for quite some time, mostly because I didn't think anybody would be interested. Now however, I have noticed the problem with anti-virus systems on Windows and I have begun thinking about a safety-oriented Forth that allows closed-source distribution for users. So, I'm back to thinking about Menuet again.

Also, delving into Menuet would be an opportunity for me to learn how an OS works. When I was a professional Forth programmer, we used MS-DOS, and being an expert on MS-DOS is a lot like knowing nothing about how an OS works. Laughing

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Post 10 Sep 2020, 03:46
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Ville



Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 230
Ville
Well, they took the code and in a couple of weeks also added their own copyrights to the beginning of all kernel files, booting, multitasking, GUI, networking, drivers, all. I'm not planning to find out if it would happen again.

Currently Menuet is the only OS written 100% in assembly with modern feature-set and it took us some time to realize this goal. This is also an easily identifiable place in the computing world.
Post 10 Sep 2020, 17:41
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sts-q



Joined: 29 Nov 2018
Posts: 33
sts-q
@Hugh-Aguilar: Do you know of any currently active Forth OS for x86 or arm?

* colorForth
* mecrisp
* ??
Post 10 Sep 2020, 18:14
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Hugh-Aguilar



Joined: 26 May 2020
Posts: 13
Hugh-Aguilar
Ville wrote:
Well, they took the code and in a couple of weeks also added their own copyrights to the beginning of all kernel files, booting, multitasking, GUI, networking, drivers, all. I'm not planning to find out if it would happen again.

Theft happens! Evil or Very Mad There is a guy on comp.lang.forth who blatantly put his copyright notice on some code written by a Russian. He didn't understand the code --- that code doesn't have the important feature that my code has, and he vaguely said that he would add this feature later, but he didn't understand that this would require a complete rewrite because the algorithm the Russian chose doesn't support this feature at all.

I have also been told that VFX, which is sold for several hundred dollars by MPE, was derived directly from SP-Forth which is a Russian PD Forth system. I'm not familiar enough with SP-Forth to verify this. I tried to obtain the source-code for SP-Forth, but the Russians wouldn't provide it, although SP-Forth is advertised as being open-source --- maybe they only provide the source-code if you ask in Russian. Wink

This is why I thought that Safety Forth would be a good idea. It would allow people to distribute closed-source programs and not worry about anybody slapping a copyright notice on it. At the same time, it would allow users to download programs and run them without worrying that the programs are malware. This is essentially the same idea that inspired Java.

I have heard a lot of bad things about the Java language (that it is similar to COBOL in bloat, lack of features and general mentality) --- I don't have any interest in learning Java --- I am primarily interested in Forth that is very lightweight.

Ville wrote:
Currently Menuet is the only OS written 100% in assembly with modern feature-set and it took us some time to realize this goal. This is also an easily identifiable place in the computing world.

Maybe Safety Forth is a bad fit for Menuet --- you want to stick to 100% assembly-language.

If Safety Forth does get developed, there would definitely be a two-tier system of Menuet users: the elite who program in FASM, and the plebeian who program in Safety Forth.
I don't see a problem with this. A lot of mundane programs don't require elite super-programmers to write them. Execution speed is not very important.
Getting the program written in a few hours (rather than several days), and getting it written at low cost by an apprentice programmer is important.

Realistically, your "easily identifiable place in the computing world" is going to continue to be very small and very elitist unless you provide some way for the plebeian to write programs so they can have accomplishments of their own rather than just be software users.

In Linux the elite program in GCC and the plebeian program in Python.
Linux is hugely popular --- so this two-tier system is workable.

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Post 11 Sep 2020, 03:09
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Hugh-Aguilar



Joined: 26 May 2020
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Hugh-Aguilar
sts-q wrote:
@Hugh-Aguilar: Do you know of any currently active Forth OS for x86 or arm?

* colorForth
* mecrisp
* ??

I'm not aware of any Forth OS for desktop computers (x86, ARM, etc.) --- I'm not expecting this to ever happen.

Most Forth systems for micro-controllers have round-robin multi-tasking --- this has been part of Forth since the 1970s (it wasn't included in ANS-Forth though).
A multi-tasking OS for a micro-controller is not going to be hard real-time --- at best you are going to have soft real-time that is pretty lenient in regard to delays --- typically Forth systems for micro-controllers allow ISRs to be written in Forth, but it is up to the programmer to make everything happen in real-time.

I have no experience with a multi-tasking OS on a micro-controller --- I only know about paced loops which are easy to understand and they work pretty well so long as you have only a few things that need to be done.

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Post 11 Sep 2020, 03:13
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