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Kedar



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 16
fpissarra and DimonSoft have raised a valid point about communication, and I was wondering what would Unify discussion of things such as maths, physics, programming, algebra, etc. For instance, what Definitions and Symbols would they (and others) like to recommend for: Equal, Equivalence, and Assignment?
Post 18 Apr 2019, 07:25
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8225
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Beside concept, ideas, what things physically exists infinitely? space? before all the pixels could be drawn, screen must exists first, we could draw them all in memory but in order to view it, screen / vision presentable form must exists.

When you got space, you will get non space, Laughing and that is where the systems hide themselves.

Whem something that is so tiny, yet able to communicate or affect each other,and best still, able to perform it without being detected by us (smart Laughing / primitive human / apes), then it is something quite an achivement.

It could also means, there are things system don't want us to modify, study, or etc.

Then I ask myself a question, does arts artistic exists? Because the undeniable fact when artistic style factor exists, it means, they are certainly designed.

Damn, I just walk down the rabbit hole.
Post 18 Apr 2019, 19:12
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DimonSoft



Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 532
Location: Belarus
Furs wrote:
DimonSoft wrote:
Kedar wrote:
in Programming '==' means Equivalence, and '=' means Assignment

As a side note, C-based programming languages are hardly even 1/4th of programming, so the whole ===== operators craziness shouldn’t be used for any sane reasoning.
At least it's much better than the extremely ugly assignment like := or <- is in some languages.

Now whether == should be equivalence or not is a different matter, but assignment should be a simple = because it just looks better, also provides stuff like += -= >>= and so on.

I'm guessing it's those other non-C-like languages' fault that we even have the crappy AT&T reversed syntax for asm in the first place. Since now "mov eax, ebx" is really just eax = ebx and is very easy to read. "add eax, ebx" is just eax += ebx and is similarly easy to read.

So, what’s the difference in the order of operands between x := y and x = y?

AT&T is crappy, but this has nothing to do with languages that don’t invent new notations for things that already have ones. := has been widely used in maths for ages to distinguish between assignment and equality comparison you learn at school.

Now, = was used in Fortran, presumably due to extreme memory limitations of those times, but this reasoning is not working anymore, otherwise we would have saved kilobytes of memory by writing the whole program in a single line. Another language known to use = as assignment operator was Basic. So, maybe Basic is the father of C? This could have explained why C programmers tend to hate it. But wait, even blamed-a-lot Basic used = for comparison…

You want to talk about the idea of using << and >> for shifts? Well, you can start with the consequences this approach had about 30 years later. It’s just another funny story about one of thousands of bad design decisions made in C.

Oh, and what programming mistake with = and == was very common in C/C++ until recently, when compilers finally learned to show a warning? Will you still insist = should be used for assignment? Then, maybe, you should choose a 10 year old child who has started learning maths recently and explain them that x = x + 1 is not an equation with x variable?

You think I’ve finished? I’m just warming up. Next time we can proceed discussing the idea to introduce operators with side effects into a language.
Post 18 Apr 2019, 20:01
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 16625
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
I think the basic premise behind many design choices is to allow people to be lazy. If all assignments in C required assign, as in "assign x = x + 1", I'd imagine everyone would hate it because it needs too many keystrokes. We already see this with unsigned int, people are too lazy to even think through whether a variable should be signed or unsigned, let alone actually type nine more keystrokes to make it unsigned.


Last edited by revolution on 19 Apr 2019, 01:27; edited 1 time in total
Post 18 Apr 2019, 23:14
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fpissarra



Joined: 10 Apr 2019
Posts: 38
revolution wrote:
I think the basic premise behind many design choices is to allow people to be lazy.


Lazyness is the main driving force of the entire universe. Forget matter, energy, cosmological constants, or even 42... lazyness is the answer! Smile
Post 19 Apr 2019, 01:21
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fpissarra



Joined: 10 Apr 2019
Posts: 38
sleepsleep wrote:
Beside concept, ideas, what things physically exists infinitely? space? before all the pixels could be drawn, screen must exists first, we could draw them all in memory but in order to view it, screen / vision presentable form must exists.


About the hypothesis of an eternal existing universe, the alternative is not so reassuring: if the universe isn't eternal and had a creator, then the creator was created as well, before the universe... and "his" creator, before "him", ad infinitum... breaking the Aristothelic first cause principle... Unless someone conceptualizes this creator as eternal, which brings back the question about pixels and screens.

Anyway, pixels can be drawn on a sheet of paper... Screens appears long after printers...

sleepsleep wrote:
When you got space, you will get non space, Laughing and that is where the systems hide themselves.


Non-space? I understand the duality, but systems "hiding"?

sleepsleep wrote:
Whem something that is so tiny, yet able to communicate or affect each other,and best still, able to perform it without being detected by us (smart Laughing / primitive human / apes), then it is something quite an achivement.

It could also means, there are things system don't want us to modify, study, or etc.


Why antropomorphize the "systems"? They don't hide, it is only the way we can observe their behavior (we could be wrong about what it is real -- just the effects of a phonomena is available to measurements!)...

sleepsleep wrote:
Then I ask myself a question, does arts artistic exists? Because the undeniable fact when artistic style factor exists, it means, they are certainly designed.

Damn, I just walk down the rabbit hole.

The existence problem is a good one, never solved through history... How do you prove something exists? Logic is not capable of this: It only can prove that a proposition is viable or not... Dialethics can't prove either (leads to "eternal" battle of ideas); Rethorics is even less useful (usually leads to sophisms)... Well... Then came science, which is a sequence of attempts to explain "something" through rethorics -> dialethics -> metaphysics (which have nothing to do with "sopernatural") -> logic -> experimentation -> review by specialists (peers) -> back to rethorics ->..., in a never ending cycle, but it is still an attempt to explain things...

Here's an argument, as an example of why sciences aren't infalible: Until the begining of 20th century, physicists believed light travels through space via a invisible substance called "ether". The idea was if sound needs a medium to propagate, then light needs too. NOW we know this is not true (or, do we?)... But... In recent decades, physicists estimated the total amount of mass in the observable universe and concluded there aren't enough mass to cause the increase of the velocity of the expansion (as it is observed), so they conceptualize "dark matter" (matter we cannot see) - and, where there is matter and velocity, there is energy, so the "dark energy" concept emerges as well... Well... is this "dark matter" the medium where light travels, previously conceptualized as "ether"? or not?

So, my point still is: Everything only can be explained by concepts, and these concepts aren't mapped directly to reality, but they are an analogy as close to reality as they can be (until someone discover something different, with coherency). We really don't know what "mass" is... what "movement" is... what "time" is... is the concept of energy is right, if the concept of "force" is right, and so on... but they are the closest thing we have that explains everything with coherence.
Post 19 Apr 2019, 01:56
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Did I forgot to take off the kettle again?
Like that lazy programming "artist" who can't write a compiler which will manage numbers, text, and memory ammount.

(what is 'basic premise' anyway? can we all hear it, the natural englishers?)
Post 19 Apr 2019, 04:52
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DimonSoft



Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 532
Location: Belarus
revolution wrote:
I think the basic premise behind many design choices is to allow people to be lazy. If all assignments in C required assign, as in "assign x = x + 1", I'd imagine everyone would hate it because it needs too many keystrokes. We already see this with unsigned int, people are too lazy to even think through whether a variable should be signed or unsigned, let alone actually type nine more keystrokes to make it unsigned.

Basic did this. And later the LET keyword became optional.

I really doubt there can be a better solution than having := or <= as a short equaivalent. : is used in many languages to separate the basic idea and its explanation: like in this sentence, actually. <= is just a nice alternative showing the direction of assignment, although this one is not that good due to the same inconsistency we see with = in Basic: having two absolutely unrelated meanings is a way to problems in language a few versions later.
Post 19 Apr 2019, 05:45
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 16625
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
In VB we can do this without any side effects:
Code:
if a = b then ... ; compare a to b, nothing else
 ...
c = b ; assign b to c, nothing else    
So it can be done unambiguously based upon the context.

In Python we get an error:
Code:
if a = b: ... ; SyntaxError: invalid syntax    
So Python forces the use of a comparison operator because it knows from the context that assignment isn't permitted there.

C tries to do too much:
Code:
 if (a = b) ... ;assign b to a, AND test whether a is zero    
Post 19 Apr 2019, 05:55
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Kedar



Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 16
revolution wrote:
I think the basic premise behind many design choices is to allow people to be lazy.

I think the designer primarily chooses to enable people to be efficient and fluent, but allows that ease will improve the chances of lazy getting it right, which lazy maybe doesn’t really care enough about achieving.

Perhaps (with regard to Plain English, Ease, Fluency and Efficiency):
Equality: Made or Viewed as Same Value => ‘=’
Assignment: Variable n is Assigned the value of 3 => 'n = 3'
Equivalence: Variable n is now tested to see if it can be Assigned Equality with 3 => 'n == 3'

Perhaps the only thing that doesn’t exist is Nothing?


Last edited by Kedar on 30 Apr 2019, 00:59; edited 1 time in total
Post 19 Apr 2019, 06:30
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1420
DimonSoft wrote:
So, what’s the difference in the order of operands between x := y and x = y?
None, it's just ugly. Wink

The difference was another context, which came from languages that don't have constructs like += or -= and so on.

DimonSoft wrote:
AT&T is crappy, but this has nothing to do with languages that don’t invent new notations for things that already have ones. := has been widely used in maths for ages to distinguish between assignment and equality comparison you learn at school.
Math notation is horrid though, that's precisely why it's ugly.

DimonSoft wrote:
Oh, and what programming mistake with = and == was very common in C/C++ until recently, when compilers finally learned to show a warning? Will you still insist = should be used for assignment? Then, maybe, you should choose a 10 year old child who has started learning maths recently and explain them that x = x + 1 is not an equation with x variable?
Again, the problem is math notation just sucks, that's why so many people hate math in school (and less so other sciences or technical subjects). Don't get me started also on all the bullshit greek letters or whatever other crap they use, what a burden to carry.

It's not C that needs to change (or another language to replace it), it's math notation that needs to change and be more like C.
Post 19 Apr 2019, 16:30
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DimonSoft



Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 532
Location: Belarus
Furs wrote:
DimonSoft wrote:
So, what’s the difference in the order of operands between x := y and x = y?
None, it's just ugly. Wink

So, you’re basically trying to turn your personal preference into reason for something to be different?

Furs wrote:
The difference was another context, which came from languages that don't have constructs like += or -= and so on.

And thanks god such languages exist. +=, -= and the rest are just terrible from reliability point of view, since they have ambiguous semantics by nature. Say, should a += b be equivalent to a = a + b. If not, why?

Furs wrote:
Math notation is horrid though, that's precisely why it's ugly.

Furs wrote:
Again, the problem is math notation just sucks, that's why so many people hate math in school (and less so other sciences or technical subjects). Don't get me started also on all the bullshit greek letters or whatever other crap they use, what a burden to carry.

Programming is definitely one of technical subjects. Can one hate maths and be a good programmer? I really doubt so.

I’d like to see any reasoning for math notation being ugly, instead of plain sentiments. Greek letters, for instance, make it much easier to explain the theory of programming languages (the one Dragon Book is about), making a clear distinction between terminals, nonterminals and arbitrary substrings.

Furs wrote:
It's not C that needs to change (or another language to replace it), it's math notation that needs to change and be more like C.

It turns out it is C that is against the whole other world. So, why should the whole world change to the rules of a terribly designed programming language that has nearly every feature against software reliability? You’ve ignored every question related to that.
Post 19 Apr 2019, 17:47
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8225
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What is natural and what is unnatural,
It sounds more like when we could affirm how something was formed by natural forces, then it is natural or else, they are unnatural, Laughing

I went to have my late night supper and saw a movie in television, ant man. One scene caught my attention, it said, where time is no longer relevant, but you see, my conclusion is, time never exists, it just a measurement scale like km, liter, GHz etc, it helps us to measure changes.

I went into deeper rabbit hole, does the existence of number and its relationship, actually showcase intelligent design? Let say I am a carpenter, I build chair, so I keep on building chair. Now what cause the idea, I need to know how many chair I built? Does the dog wants to know how many time I feed her in a single day? Does the cat wants to know how many kitten she got?

Do cats care if they are beautiful or ugly in front of a mirror and why?

When there are non space instead of everything shows up in space, like a car without body, but only essential thing in daylight. The existence of things could function, integrate and perform under the hood, is already some sort of arts, just like the car body.

We are using conscious, number, logic, etc that essential for us to somehow understand what is going on, do all these concepts, ideas, etc, already exists before big bang, or before universes exist? Who am I before I am here right now on Earth, solving this is equal to solving where the hell universe came from I guess. Laughing
Post 19 Apr 2019, 18:30
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Did I forgot to take off the kettle again?
Get furs to the greek letters
Post 20 Apr 2019, 01:12
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Did I forgot to take off the kettle again?
And cats do care
Why they care for the mirror that is anything but thin air, that is a question
Post 20 Apr 2019, 01:15
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1420
DimonSoft wrote:
So, you’re basically trying to turn your personal preference into reason for something to be different?
How am I trying to "turn" anything? I just stated my opinion.

DimonSoft wrote:
Programming is definitely one of technical subjects. Can one hate maths and be a good programmer? I really doubt so.
I was talking about math notation not math in general.

DimonSoft wrote:
I’d like to see any reasoning for math notation being ugly, instead of plain sentiments. Greek letters, for instance, make it much easier to explain the theory of programming languages (the one Dragon Book is about), making a clear distinction between terminals, nonterminals and arbitrary substrings.
Greek letters make nothing easier and are only a historical artifact or based on "tradition", just like musical notation, both are full of baggage and nonsense. (music notation, in particular, can be expressed much more logically via simple mathematical relationships; a notation based on numbers is so much easier to comprehend)

The problem with math notation is that it's too much like a functional programming language instead of imperative. These days you can analyze a math problem imperatively, like in some CAS software, and it's so much easier.

People hate math in general because of that; they tend to like logic or other math-based sciences, or even programming. Just like Haskell is a minority language in computers, so are math people who won't "get" it why the rest of the world hates functional programming.

DimonSoft wrote:
It turns out it is C that is against the whole other world. So, why should the whole world change to the rules of a terribly designed programming language that has nearly every feature against software reliability? You’ve ignored every question related to that.
It's C and C-based languages which share the same notation. I don't see how that's different than the "whole other world" all are based off the bad math notation. I can say it's math notation vs "whole other world" based on C notation.

But C notation is relatively new, not even a century old. There's a reason it's so popular (C-like syntax I mean, not C itself) -- and it's not due to historical reasons like math notation is.
Post 20 Apr 2019, 11:56
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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People come and people go, and we been living like we will exist in every tomorrow.

We got angry easily on things that most likely not so matter to us, saw a news yesterday, manager in Goldsmith store shoot dead. People who meet with vehicle accident because they presume they got very urgent things that in reality, not so urgent.

There are so many people queueing, they want to order food, some queued without any decision yet on what to eat, so they most likely spend like 1 minute in front the counter to choose, some just straight away order what they want.

All kinds is people, all kinds of skin color, races, opinions, smell, odor, all kinds of sounds,

Do dogs think about getting heal if she doesn't feeling well?

How am I going to reach something to group of ants?
Post 20 Apr 2019, 15:03
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_in_Venezuela
Quote:
A socioeconomic and political crisis that began in Venezuela during the presidency of Hugo Chávez, has continued into the presidency of Nicolás Maduro. It is marked by hyperinflation, climbing hunger, disease, crime and death rates, and massive emigration from the country.[3] The situation is the worst economic crisis in Venezuela's history, and among the worst in the world since 2014.


How long do we need before everything could exist harmony?

I built my own space craft, now I am far away from viewable land, orbiting Earth, watching moon rise, what is real? Is my memories real?

Closing my eyes, am inside my own dimension now. One day, when I getting tired, I will close my eyes and then, I will live eternally in my own dimension.
Post 20 Apr 2019, 15:55
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8225
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We can learn knowledge but we can't learn attitudes,

Attitudes come through realization.

Most of the time, it is definitely earlier to say somebody should do something regarding these, we should stop these, we should legalize these, we should help them etc.

The pain is always execution.
Post 20 Apr 2019, 16:53
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Ali.Z



Joined: 08 Jan 2018
Posts: 222
DimonSoft wrote:
Furs wrote:
Again, the problem is math notation just sucks, that's why so many people hate math in school (and less so other sciences or technical subjects). Don't get me started also on all the bullshit greek letters or whatever other crap they use, what a burden to carry.

Programming is definitely one of technical subjects. Can one hate maths and be a good programmer? I really doubt so.


im not really into this discussion, but math is optional in programming.
you and/or others probably know im bad in math, but seriously math is optional.

maybe math is needed when working on graphics, converting from one numeral system to another, or when writing an assembler.

and i really dont know anything about math, at all.

_________________
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Post 20 Apr 2019, 17:50
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