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flat assembler > DOS > VirtualBox (VT-X under Nehalem Westmere 32nm)

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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
Hey guys,
So I'm not a trendy person, I don't buy modern hardware. But a lot of my older machines have died, so I ended up getting a new PC earlier this year that has a (circa 2010) Intel Nehalem Westmere 32nm processor (Core i5 650 3.2 Ghz dual-core). And I installed FreeDOS 1.1 test#3 (unofficial, not formally finished or released yet) inside VirtualBox. And yes, the emulated packet driver works too (for you networking snobs, heh). EDIT: DOS386, don't worry, I'm actually triple-booting on that machine: FreeDOS, PuppyLinux, Win64.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmere_(microarchitecture)#Westmere

Quote:

New virtualization capability: "VMX Unrestricted mode support," which allows 16-bit guests to run (real mode and big real mode).


Okay, I'm far from a guru on all this junk, but apparently VT-X is really good, esp. nowadays, e.g. you can even (I think?) run a 64-bit guest OS atop a 32-bit host (surprisingly). Even Win8 will supposedly come with Hyper-V, but (so far) that needs VT-X and is 64-bit only (despite some 32-bit builds of Win8 existing). Even Win7 (Business / Enterprise / Ultimate only, not Home Basic or Premium) with WinXP mode (under VPC) originally required VT-X (though they later "fixed" that, heh). I think AMD has had "paged real mode" (similar? different?) for a while, but I never tested it (and that old laptop is long dead too, ugh).

The real problem is that not all cpus have VT-X (nor the latest revisions), e.g. this 2009 laptop here (45nm Penryn, Pentium [Core2-ish] Dual-Core, 2.2 Ghz). AMD seems to include VT-X (aka, SVM ??) on more models than Intel, for whatever reason.

Long story short: Tomasz's Kelvar works (with sound!) in VirtualBox 4.1.4 atop Win64 (Core i5) for me. So that's great news. (Tomasz loves his "flat real mode", heh, and yet it's notoriously unpopular in emulation.) Presumably other hypervisors / emulators / whatever (Xen? KVM?) have some partial support for VT-X also, but I haven't tested.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/kelvar.png/


Last edited by rugxulo on 12 Dec 2011, 14:40; edited 1 time in total
Post 12 Dec 2011, 14:20
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 7310
Location: Kraków, Poland
rugxulo wrote:
(Tomasz loves his "flat real mode", heh, and yet it's notoriously unpopular in emulation.)
The "flat real mode" (or "big real mode") is usually emulated perfectly, it is the 32-bit unreal mode that is almost never emulated properly.
Post 12 Dec 2011, 14:24
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
Heheh, sorry, the terminology still confuses me, and I can't claim to know which is used where.
Post 12 Dec 2011, 14:39
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Dex4u



Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1601
Location: web
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
rugxulo wrote:
(Tomasz loves his "flat real mode", heh, and yet it's notoriously unpopular in emulation.)
The "flat real mode" (or "big real mode") is usually emulated perfectly, it is the 32-bit unreal mode that is almost never emulated properly.


Very Cool read, i find it better to be in pmode and switch back to realmode when needed, eg its possible to have a fully working 32bitPM dos this way.
Post 12 Dec 2011, 16:59
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DOS386



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1904
rugxulo wrote:
triple-booting on that machine: FreeDOS, PuppyLinux, Win64


COOL Smile

> Okay, I'm far from a guru on all this junk, but
> apparently VT-X is really good

Why put up with 20'000 transistors (8086) and 100 KiB (DOS) when you can invest 3'000'000'000 transistors (Westmere) and 50 GiB (Vir***** + Win*****) to achieve the same effect: get 16-bit DOS stuff working Very Happy

> Long story short: Tomasz's Kelvar works (with sound!)

I never got any sound from the thing Sad

Anyway, please test the sound support when booting aforementioned FreeDOS (MPXPLAY, JUDAS, ...) http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=10911 Wink

_________________
Bug Nr.: 12345

Title: Hello World program compiles to 100 KB !!!

Status: Closed: NOT a Bug
Post 13 Dec 2011, 09:13
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
DOS386 wrote:

Why put up with 20'000 transistors (8086) and 100 KiB (DOS) when you can invest 3'000'000'000 transistors (Westmere) and 50 GiB (Vir***** + Win*****) to achieve the same effect: get 16-bit DOS stuff working Very Happy


What did you expect? Traditionally, recompiling / rewriting / porting was too expensive, so binary compatibility is (or was) everything.

Besides, what do you think will be first up on the chopping block? 16-bit compatibility (esp. thanks to AMD64)!!

DOS386 wrote:

I never got any sound from [Kelvar]. Sad


%BLASTER% set?? Anyways, I'm more surprised at his choice of .WAV than anything. Wink

DOS386 wrote:

Anyway, please test the sound support when booting aforementioned FreeDOS (MPXPLAY, JUDAS, ...) http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=10911 Wink


Doesn't work.

Code:
 FreeDOS  C\TMP>mpxplay -?
Mpxplay v1.59          Audio player for DOS          by PDSoft 1998-2011

 FreeDOS  C\TMP>mpxplay -sct
Autodetecting/testing available outputs/soundcards, please wait...
IHD  Intel PCH 80863B56 -> Realtek 10EC0662 max 96kHz/24bit/8ch
Autodetecting finished... Exiting...
    
Post 16 Dec 2011, 20:48
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DOS386



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1904
rugxulo wrote:
%BLASTER% set??


NO, RTFS Shocked - where in Kelvar do you see %%BLASTER%% reading?

Quote:
Anyways, I'm more surprised at his choice of .WAV than anything


What did you expect? Vorbis? FLAC? WAVPACK? TAK? MP5? BLAC (Banana-Lossless-Audio-Codec) ?

Quote:
Doesn't work.
Code:
Autodetecting/testing available outputs/soundcards, please wait...
IHD  Intel PCH 80863B56 -> Realtek 10EC0662 max 96kHz/24bit/8ch
Autodetecting finished... Exiting...    


So MPXPLAY detects the chip correctly but isn't able to use it then?
Post 17 Dec 2011, 02:05
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2341
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
DOS386 wrote:

rugxulo wrote:
Doesn't work.
Code:
Autodetecting/testing available outputs/soundcards, please wait...
IHD  Intel PCH 80863B56 -> Realtek 10EC0662 max 96kHz/24bit/8ch
Autodetecting finished... Exiting...    


So MPXPLAY detects the chip correctly but isn't able to use it then?


Mpxplay doesn't work, just plays noisy static.

However, RayeR's recent recompile of Judas 2.10c with latest PCI i.d.s (or whatever) from my card appears to work for those apps (JP.EXE, ANAL.EXE) only.

(This post pertains to real native HDA hardware, aka native FreeDOS, not VirtualBox.)
Post 28 Dec 2011, 01:00
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