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flat assembler > OS Construction > 512b - Operating System Contest

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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
Can i take this opportunity, to clear some thing up ,when the compo is over 1/10/2004 00:00 (GMT), there will be a poll on the forum open for one week after the end of the compo, where you vote for the entry you like best, just one vote per member and you can not vote for you self.
At the end of the week the winner will be announced, and will go in the hall of fame!.
Any comments on this are well come.

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 19 Sep 2004, 13:29
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6303
Location: Kraków, Poland

crc wrote:
I've never seen a BIOS that relies on the 30 bytes in question. And I've tested this on everything from an original IBM PC to a fairly new Dell Laptop. So what BIOSes/machines do you know that rely on those 30 bytes?


The BIOS Parameter Block (BPB) is a FAT-only thing. If the partition contains file system other than FAT (like NTFS or ext2), the format is different. So there are no bytes in boot sector other than a boot signature that BIOS could rely on - even the jump at the beginning is FAT-specific.


Last edited by Tomasz Grysztar on 19 Sep 2004, 17:01; edited 1 time in total
Post 19 Sep 2004, 14:23
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crc



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 637
Location: Penndel, PA [USA]
Privalov, that's what I thought. Thanks for confirming it.
Post 19 Sep 2004, 16:56
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DuLac



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Portugal (EU)
Hi, CRC

So you are the 'retrocalc' one, forgive my mistake.
Have you meet the 'Jupiter ACE' computer? Still have one. The keyboard needs new rubber keys. That's the big weakness on it, besides having 1k to programming... A lovely machine.


crc wrote:

Quote:
If a loader loads many Os's wich OS is it part of?
If many loaders (pre and post OS birth) load one and same OS then which loader is part of the OS? Even those that do not exist yet make part of the OS ?


Even if a loader can load many OSes, it's still part of each OS. For example, if you use GRUB to load your OS, then GRUB is a part of your OS. The fact that GRUB can also load Syllable and Linux doesn't mean that it's not part of one OS and not the others.


Disagree.
Please consider the following:
If YOUR loader is part of the OS... then YOUR loader belongs to the OS owner.
QED (proof by absurd).



Quote:

Quote:
Wink I'm writing this and I'm certainly not part of the editor...

Are you sure about this? The editor is nothing without you; using it makes you an extension of it (or vice versa.)


At a depper level, no. At a more mudaine, practical and tecnical view, I'm sure.
When I turn on/off the PC *I AM* an external help as the BIOS is.
No wonder that the BIOS *and* the loader get a middle classification:Firmware.
The loader exists, and acts, as a practical code to allow changes in the OS without changing the BIOS. It is just a LINK between the Hardware an the OS as much as the OS is a link between the Hardware and applications.

You write an application without an OS... Will you call the application... an OS?
The difference is in the puding. The loader is a standard way to get a OS loaded, and you can buid another OS or another loader that work with the existing ones.

The easies way to load and try a new OS, like this 512 one (must give services to applications, be open or will be just an application, not an OS) is to give it the name IO.SYS and put if in DOS formated diskette. And to be easely used by applications.

The other way around it will have external help in puting himself in a disk... and you create another paradox (proof of the falseness of the assumptions).


Quote:
Not exactly true Smile The rule says:

The maximum size for all code and data compiled, is limited to 512 bytes, but there is no limit on size of memory used.

Correct.


Quote:
If the boot sector/loader is a part of the OS, as I believe, then it must be part of that 512 bytes.

Correct again. If I remind correctly a false statement does imply a state where the result can be both True or False, but not both. Personaly I do not even bother to apply cartesian logic to complex-systems (like daily life). They do not apply. There are values in between and consensus is the key to comunication. Thats why controling information is the key to controling the people (us + who controls).
Naturally the controller loes not see itself as people. That is also a gray area.


Quote:

The problem with thinking of the boot sector as separate from the OS is that it introduces functionality beyond the rest of the OS. Your boot sector could switch to pmode, initialize some drivers, etc -- all OS functions. That would be "external assistance". If your boot sector just loads a 512 byte file/sector from elsewhere on the disk, then what's the point? The BIOS already does this when the PC boots!

Agree. That would go beyond the standard 'loader' and I see such 'extentions' as you describe as a cheat to be excluded from the whole thing. NOT the Loader as a link between the BIOS and the OS, fully consagrated as a BIOS extension by the BIOS itself to act as a link... Does that makes it part of the BIOS too ?!?


Quote:
I've never seen a BIOS that relies on the 30 bytes in question.
So what BIOSes/machines do you know that rely on those 30 bytes?


None! As a link it is, as such part of the BIOS Smile it eases the BIOS from media support for various media, giving the OS an info that belongs to the BIOS role.
Reason? Tecnical. It's practical that way. Each object carries info about itself.
Are PnP data in cards part of the OS or data the OS uses? Same with disks.

Just like to play fair... This nano-OS (should be Ato-OS not even Pico-OS)
deserves the chances other OSs have and should not be limited by artificial ambiguities. Besides it would be nice if it was easy to exend thus usable as a base to further work.... but that's just an idea.


Quote:
The purpose of this compo is to encourage new development in small OSes.
By packing a lot of functionality in a small space, we hope to show that OS kernels need not be large to be interesting.


OK... why criple it?
It is usefull as a base... It must have an interpreter that could be out...
That's acceptable. But doing others job ain't.

'till,

_________________
Just clean patterns under the junky surface...
---
Le$$ nicotin: Smoke more to get the same dose.
New tabaco: Less nicotine, Same tar (cancerous).
Balance: Profit$ up, Population down
Post 24 Sep 2004, 00:36
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DuLac



Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Portugal (EU)
The easiest way to MOUNT this Ato-OS is just by renaming it IO.SYS and copying the file to a just formated DOS diskette.

512 bytes, no install program.
Everyone can try it.
No extra pain for the programmer.

_________________
Just clean patterns under the junky surface...
---
Le$$ nicotin: Smoke more to get the same dose.
New tabaco: Less nicotine, Same tar (cancerous).
Balance: Profit$ up, Population down
Post 24 Sep 2004, 05:15
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crc



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 637
Location: Penndel, PA [USA]
Matrix, thanks for making that boot sector into an attachment Smile
----

Quote:
Have you meet the 'Jupiter ACE' computer? ....



Sadly, no. I'm working to build a ForthOS on standard PC hardware - it's slowly getting to a useful state...

As to using the DOS boot sector: not all disks are FAT12 (I don't have any; I either use a 'raw' floppy or ext2fs formatted floppies now). And that's still an extra layer away from the hardware. The BIOS loads a single sector for you; why have the BIOS load a boot sector that then searches the disk for 'io.sys' and finally loads it? I can understand if you want to avoid having to reformat a floppy, but a separate loader is overkill for a 512byte OS.


Quote:
Please consider the following:
If YOUR loader is part of the OS... then YOUR loader belongs to the OS owner.



Not really. If I use GRUB to boot my OS, then GRUB is part of my OS, even if I don't own the actual copyright to it. Software copyrights and licensing issues in these cases can get quite sticky, so I try to avoid relying on programs written by others as much as possible.
Post 24 Sep 2004, 11:21
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Dragontamer



Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 84
When compared to the rest of yall, my program sucks so much ...

Oh well Smile
Post 27 Sep 2004, 04:44
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Matrix



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1171
Location: Overflow
?

roticv wrote:
How is it related to the competition?



Smile

its about 512 bytes

ok, well it starts with 1 boot sector Smile

MATRIX


Last edited by Matrix on 30 Sep 2004, 12:00; edited 1 time in total
Post 30 Sep 2004, 01:43
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roticv



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 374
Location: Singapore
It is 3 sectors if I remember correctly, not 512 bytes.
Post 30 Sep 2004, 09:32
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This is your last day to get your entry in for the 512b compo (30 sept 2004)
Decard will set a poll up for the 512b compo ,This poll will last for a week, from the end of the compo (from 1 to 7 Oct 2004).
Take this opportunity to vote for the one you liked the best, Remember people have spent a lot of time coding and we will all learn from studying these examples Smile .
So do your bit and vote.

PS: Latest entry's can be found here: http://512.decard.net/?body=intro

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.


Last edited by ASHLEY4 on 30 Sep 2004, 11:26; edited 1 time in total
Post 30 Sep 2004, 10:09
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decard



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1095
Location: Poland
I'm going to set a poll.... but just before 1.10.2004 Smile
Post 30 Sep 2004, 10:24
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
Great! thanks decard Smile .
Also may i thank you for a great job you have done, with the 512b compo web site.

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 30 Sep 2004, 11:07
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decard



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1095
Location: Poland
There's a problem that this forum allows up to 10 poll items and we have already 11 entries. I PMed Privalov, but he still didn't read it Sad He have to change that limit.... I could create poill on my site, but I could do it tomorrow, but then we couldn't make sure that only forum members vote.
Post 30 Sep 2004, 18:40
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
decard, Y not put polls1 and poll2 up , and divide the entry's between them ?.

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 30 Sep 2004, 20:51
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decard



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1095
Location: Poland
I don't like that. I will wait for Privalov till this evening, if nothing happens I will setup my website for the poll.
Post 01 Oct 2004, 06:55
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decard



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1095
Location: Poland
Please submit your vote to .512b compo.
Voting site is ready - now please decide which entry is the best and.... just vote Smile. Please only write your nick, so I can validate if votes are submited by members of this forum, which is one of the compo's rules. You can vote only once - it will be validated. I allow a week for voting, and then I will publish the results. Good luck. Very Happy

http://512.decard.net/?body=vote
Post 01 Oct 2004, 17:51
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
Done another great! job with site, decard.

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 01 Oct 2004, 20:54
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jas20



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 41
Location: Australia
Its good that I have a week to vote. (I've been ill) Jas20
Post 02 Oct 2004, 07:10
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Chewy509



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 297
Location: Bris-vegas, Australia
256b source
Since the submission of entries has closed, here is the source for 256b.

*I consider this Public Domain. Use as you wish! Very Happy

Also you may find this as a good example of how NOT to code! Rolling Eyes


Description: 256b Source Code.
Download
Filename: 256b.zip
Filesize: 3.07 KB
Downloaded: 368 Time(s)

Post 03 Oct 2004, 01:40
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ASHLEY4



Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 376
Location: UK
My web site has been up dated with some more 512b compo entrys.
http://www.falconrybells.co.uk/page2.htm

\\\\||////
(@@)
ASHLEY4.
Post 03 Oct 2004, 20:00
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